help / options for finishing a sign please

[Glen Mathers]

Looks like i’d have to go with the wood option, must be a picky customer though, it’s hardly noticeable, i’d tell them it’s their shop what’s out and not the sign (in a nice way 😀 ), you wouldn’t see that from below it looks like you have to cross the road to see the gap.

[Phill Fenton]

Typical – blame the building when it’s quite obvious you haven’t cut the panels straight 😕

Do you really expect the client to believe that ropy old story? 🙄 😉

[Mike Grant]

I would put it in a panatrim frame (other frames are available) but cut it to suit the building, then bung in the sign. Job done. To be honest I hate seeing big signs like that held up by screws all along its length, looks tacky. 😳

[Ian Johnston]

quote Mike Grant:

I would put it in a panatrim frame (other frames are available) but cut it to suit the building, then bung in the sign. Job done. To be honest I hate seeing big signs like that held up by screws all along its length, looks tacky. 😳

😀 Exactly the same here Mike. Sorry Hugh, but i dont mean to be critical, but TBH it would only cost a few quid to finish the job, and you would get a lot of work off the back of it.
Bar ASDA what other highstreet shops have their signage fixed directly through the face?.
The very first thing i do when looking at a job is to figure a way of hiding the fixings within the design. This particular job could have been bonded in Place around the edge using a polyeurthane adhesive with the screws on the locators being a secondary back up for hold in place. if the budget didn’t allow a frame. same look but no screws. Also i can’t stress enough how a valuable a good survey is before manufacture. Measure twice cut once, On all surveys i check levels ( even easier now with a spirit level on my I phone)
I also measure at at least every 2.5 meters the depth, this allows for cutting the sheets of making an off square tray etc.

PS this is all meant to be constructive criticism,

Ian

[Hugh Potter]

quote Glen Mathers:

Looks like i’d have to go with the wood option, must be a picky customer though, it’s hardly noticeable, i’d tell them it’s their shop what’s out and not the sign (in a nice way 😀 ), you wouldn’t see that from below it looks like you have to cross the road to see the gap.

aye, you have to stand in the middle of the road to see it.

quote Phill Fenton:

Typical – blame the building when it’s quite obvious you haven’t cut the panels straight 😕

Do you really expect the client to believe that ropy old story? 🙄 😉

absolutely!

quote Mike Grant:

I would put it in a panatrim frame (other frames are available) but cut it to suit the building, then bung in the sign. Job done. To be honest I hate seeing big signs like that held up by screws all along its length, looks tacky. 😳

me too…. however, you know you get those jobs where they want the world but then suddenly turn white when you give them the price? so you give a cheaper option and they still baulk, and again, and again???

this was one such job, in the end this was the cheapest option I was prepared to do, if they’d gone with the other guy quoting it woulda been screwed on foamex! I had quoted for foamex in a frame but it worked out more expensive than metallic silver reynobond. if the customer had had their way I’d’ve been using the crap and heavy foamex letters which were part of the original 6month old sign which fell down in June.

I just gave the price and walked away in the end, eventually they came back and we went ahead. at the end of the day though, do you take something and see something for your efforts or walk away having probably wasted 4hrs or so of visits and emails?

to be fair to myself, and this may be biased, but it’s certainly one of the better signs in the high st, most are happy with crap foamex, recovered old signs etc.. I refuse to use the stuff except in a frame.

anyways, looks like the wood idea, they’ll paint it so it’ll soon look like it’s always been there.

[Hugh Potter]

quote Ian Johnston:

quote Mike Grant:

I would put it in a panatrim frame (other frames are available) but cut it to suit the building, then bung in the sign. Job done. To be honest I hate seeing big signs like that held up by screws all along its length, looks tacky. 😳

😀 Exactly the same here Mike. Sorry Hugh, but i dont mean to be critical, but TBH it would only cost a few quid to finish the job, and you would get a lot of work off the back of it.
Bar ASDA what other highstreet shops have their signage fixed directly through the face?.
The very first thing i do when looking at a job is to figure a way of hiding the fixings within the design. This particular job could have been bonded in Place around the edge using a polyeurthane adhesive with the screws on the locators being a secondary back up for hold in place. if the budget didn’t allow a frame. same look but no screws. Also i can’t stress enough how a valuable a good survey is before manufacture. Measure twice cut once, On all surveys i check levels ( even easier now with a spirit level on my I phone)
I also measure at at least every 2.5 meters the depth, this allows for cutting the sheets of making an off square tray etc.

PS this is all meant to be constructive criticism,

Ian

HI ian,

Site survey was done, once when they refused to remove the metal shutters, and again sfterwards.

I was aware that threre was a 15mm difference between one end and the other, however, the panel couldn’t really be cut to suit as the slope wasn’t even. I was going to install in such a way as there’s only be a 7mm gap top and bottom but the un-even nature and tight fit of the left hand panel would not allow for this.

bonding? no chance!! sorry but in this instance it would have been suicide, the facia was mad of verticle toungue and groove, screwed onto a timber frame, the whole lot a little on the crap side at best. where the shutter had been removed there was a huge hole too, meaning that around 1/3rd of the sign is not supported if bonded,

believe me, I would prefer to have done a much nicer job but you can only do what the customer allows, a tray was only £50 more but they still wouldn’t go for it so, as I said above, i threw the cheapest option -I was prepared to do- at them and walked away. I guarantee that not another sign shop in the area would have done a better job for the money, two would have done worse for more.

anyways, I’ve got rent to pay, some folk can walk away from £400 profit for the equivalent of a days work, I can’t.

ps, i’ve already got two more jobs from this and am quoting more. If better is in the budget, then better they get. you really should have a wonder around my local highstreet, it’s cheap city, this is probably one of the most expensive in the street!!

cheers,
Hugh

[David-Foster-]

quote Mike Grant:

To be honest I hate seeing big signs like that held up by screws all along its length, looks tacky. 😳

I agree also but within the Clients budget? I would just put timber architrave on the surface around the edge. It covers the screws and gap and paint it with the rest of the woodwork when the painter comes in.

The sign next to Hugh’s is screwed on the front as well.

[Hugh Potter]

quote David-Foster-:

quote Mike Grant:

To be honest I hate seeing big signs like that held up by screws all along its length, looks tacky. 😳

I agree also but within the Clients budget? I would just put timber architrave on the surface around the edge. It covers the screws and gap and paint it with the rest of the woodwork when the painter comes in.

The sign next to Hugh’s is screwed on the front as well.

….and it’s foamex – as are most in the area. I rarely do much in the high st due to being beaten on price consistently, i’ll quote nice gloss composite panel, framed, etc. when the job goes up it’s usually foam, no frame etc – I’ll not compete with foam.

May I ask what difference the frame would really make to my problem? the customer specified they wanted the whole white area filled, a rectangular frame would still leave the gap – unless I bent the bottom rail down and left either a gap in the corner of the frame or cut the frame end longer and angles to compensate.

I’ll give you an idea of this town…..

have been asked to quote on a simple 2m x 400mm sign down a little pedestrian bit, simple single colour vinyl. about an hour to screw to the facia as they want no frame. i’ve quoted flood coated composite, blah blah, materials are about £40, maybe 2hrs labour, I’ve quoted £195 fitted but I just know from the customers face as they left, that there’ll be a foam panel up there in a week or so. in 6 months it’ll look like all the other wobbly foam panels i’ve pointed out around their shop.

see what i’m up against? it’s all well and good knowing what you want to put up and should put up, I could even sell ice to eskimo’s but try selling high quality signage around here and you’re up against it from the off.

have a look for yourselves…. High Street, Hailsham on google streetview (maps), the pic is a bit out of date, about a year or so but if you start at the western end of the high street, head east and keep going clockwise there are about 4 or 5 of my signs, they’re all composite and look as good (or bad, based on your opinion) as the day they were installed.

The chains such as icelands (woolworth shop), banks, charity shops, bookies, etc. all use central sign shops so we don’t get a look in. most established businesses with the money are still using 10yr old signs or more – fair play, and we’re left to fight over the scraps on shops which in most cases are bust within a year because they never promote themselves properly.

you can but do what is there to the best the budget allows.

Hugh

[David Hammond]

I am facing a similar battle over here.

Customers who don’t give a sh!t what it looks like, how its fitted, whether it’s made from Foamex or stainless steel. It is all down to price.

Yesterday I gave out my first quote in 12months for raised lettering to the local mosque… price was fine until you turn around and say ‘plus VAT’. (hot)

He tried bribing every which was possible, but I stuck to my guns. I have learnt do it for one, and they all come running. Word travels fast.

I offer advice based on my opinion, and what materials are best, ultimately the final decision comes to the customer who is always right.

My trick is offer a 12 or 24 month guarantee with a decent sign. As soon as they start finding ways to cut cost remove that. You want it screwed to the wall against my advice, fine but I am not putting it right for you.

[Mike Grant]

Sorry if I hit a nerve Hugh, my comment was just meant as constructive criticism, not knocking what you have done. We are all up against the cowboys whatever town your in. I am old school, if the material is not up to the job I don’t use it, if your desperate then join the cowboys, it’s dog eat dog out there, but I stick to my principals. I can’t walk away from a job if I’m not happy with it, thats just me. Yes I do lose jobs through it but there is always another around the corner that comes back to you because they were happy with your last job. Unfortunately the sign industry is in a downward spiral with all the sign wannabees with all the gear and no idea filling the High Street with inferior junk. It is up to us, the professionals to dig our heels in regardless, when you lower your standards its your business name that is attached to it and all to often that’s where you will stay, on the bottom rung of the ladder.
This is not a personal attack on you Hugh its on the industry as a whole. 😥
3 Years ago I was ready to pack it all in as I was so disillusioned with the only industry I have ever been in, all 38 years of it, but I couldn’t get out of my lease, so I soldiered on and glad I did, I still get great satisfaction out of the job and really couldn’t do any other.

[Martin Pearson]

Your quite right in what you say Mike and I am sure Hugh wouldn’t have taken it personally. First thing I thought when I read Hugh’s post about the High Street where he lives is that it was no different from most of the High Street’s in Fife.
Like you say it seems to be a problem all over the place, even in the Cities I have visited the further away from the city centre you are the less it seems to matter to the shop owners. I can’t help with a solution as I have no idea what the answer is. I can walk away from them because I don’t rely 100% on business to live but if you have bills to pay and family to care for then I guess it is a different story.
I actually can’t remember the last time I did a shop in any High Street, would need to get the books out to find out. Have tried educating the customer but they either plead poverty or think you are just trying to line your own pockets. Even after agreeing with me just how important it is to their business I have passed some places a week latter to see a small tatty foamex sign screwed somewhere nearish to the centre of of the facia :lol1: :lol1:

[Hugh Potter]

No offence taken Mike, I just wanted to try and make clear that I offered everything possible to make it nice, to the point of being too cheap in order to put something decent.

When I gave this final option I made clear that it would look as it does now and I walked away. I’d foolish to have turned it down when he finally came back.

Hugh

[Tim Painter]

Lots of short term lets and none of them want to pay, it seems it’s becoming the same all over on the high street.