Having problems with application tape and Roland Eco sol ink

[Robert Lambie]

sounds like your liquid clear coat is attacking the prints.
im guessing your using genuine roland inks?
what sort of liquid coating are you using. frog juice?
i havent any experience in clear coating any prints other than with frog juice and that was on thermal prints some years ago now. bottom line is the ink shouldnt be effected at all.
the purpose of the clear coat is to help give the print a longer life!

laminating prints with clear vinyl or a proper vinyl laminate is the best way forward in my opinion. if the prints are small then applying vinyl over the face without an actual laminator is easy enough, but must be done dry.

over in your country theres also things like the BIg Squeegee that i see folk using to aid laminating and applying application tape. though its not what i would say ideal, but does the job on small things with a tight budget.

http://www.bigsqueegee.com/

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[KeithLD50]

Yes, I have a Versacamm VP300 and I have always used Genuine Roland Eco Sol Max inks.

I have tried various Liquid overlaminates but I do not think one of them was frog juice. I am worried that will end up having the same problem. Here are the two problems that happen if I apply the liquid clear that I currently use based on whether I let the ink cure for a day or two before clearcoating or if I clearcoat within an hour of the print drying to the touch right after printing.

1. On the prints that are recently printed and dried to the touch, the clearcoat will pull off the edges in spots days later when attempting to apply using the application tape (low or medium tack still does the same thing).

2. On the prints I let cure for up to 3 days and then apply the liquid clearcoating, sometimes the will apply without the clear ripping off, but half the time it still comes off and actually pulls a thin hazy layer of the ink itself off the vinyl as well. You can see a very faint image of the print on the back of the application tape in the areas it pulls off the vinyl. It does not pull the entire layer of ink off but its clearly visibly on the print where it pulls the clearcoat off so they cannot be used.

the decals I am mainly concerned about using the film laminate on would be small, approx. 6" tall x 5" wide, so applying the film laminate by hand with a small squeegee would probobly not be difficult. Its just much easier to use the liquid clear coating, so would frog juice likely make much of a difference in the print and clearcoating not pulling off the print with application tape?

[Robert Lambie]

as i said, NO liquid laminate should attack the prints in any form…
Roland eco inks are one of the most used ink in the sign industry. well at our level at least!

if the prints have cured properly and are printed onto a "digital" vinyl, using the proper profile setting. there should not be an issue.

personally speaking, you cannot beat a vinyl lamination. it protects your prints from abrasion, chemical and UV attack.
liquid lamination helps with abrasion "a little" but more for UV protection.

[KeithLD50]

3 days should be plenty to cure, even on thick areas of black eco sol ink prints correct? I actually use the Roland ESM vinyl on these too so its all Roland products, ink and vinyl.

Have you used the frog juice on Roland inks and then used application tape to remove the decal from the backing paper and apply to the surface with no issues with the clear coming off or the print coming off the vinyl?

[Robert Lambie]

we have two roland machines, soljet and AJ740…
when we used forg juice in the past it was with the old Roland "thermal" printers. so completely diffrent inks etc so cannot add with advice on frog juice and eco solvent inks. sorry…

by sounds of it, whatever liquid lam your using is the problem…

Roland machine, roland inks, roland media… doesnt make sense for the ink to fail as you have used everything by the book.

[KeithLD50]

Yea, I don’t understand it.

I can get a can of the 32oz. Frog Juice for $19.99 USD so its probobly worth a try just to get it and try it out on some prints bc its not that expensive for the small jar. I am also going to try to get ahold of some samples of film overlaminate, I would think as a last resort on these smaller vinyl decals that the film overlaminate couldnt possibly have a problem (uness it seperates from the vinyl on the ink layer like the liquid did). It will be more trouble to apply and cut but will be worth it if it solves the issues. I will have to try both and remember to post the results.

In the meantime if anyone else comes across this thread and has any input I would greatly appreciate it!

[Robert Lambie]

frog juice comes in an aerosol can, thats how i used it in the past…

[KeithLD50]

Tried doing some research online, is Frog Juice a solvent based clearcoating? A few sites had mentioned that it was. I know for a fact the liquid clearcoatings I have used up until now are all water based. Could that possibly be causing the problems? They are all listed for use on solvent based inks, the one is called ClearShield, it should be a fairly well known clearcoating, its sold alot of places.

[Gert du Preez]

Keith,

In my book no such thing as "liquid laminates" exist….I’ve had the same and worse issues with it:

a) Application tape pulling laminate off

b) After only a year or so in the Desert, the laminate turns a light brown, and becomes "streaky"

c) The laminate dries out and becomes "flaky" – you can even scratch it off with your fingernails. This also removes ALL the ink from the vinyl! If you stick some masking tape over such a print and remove it, you are left with pure white vinyl underneath…

Another reason I dont use it is simply my print volumes are too big. I simply dont have the space to lay out prints, waiting for them to dry after liquid lam was put on.

"Proper" film laminates are very expensive in Namibia. The laminate alone costs 2x more than the vinyl, ink, and wear and tear costs on the printer! So I simply use clear vinyl of the same spec as the white I print on.

Oh, and I dont have a laminator. We do by hand….(but labour cost is only US$ 3.00 per hour..)

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

I have an spi roland, the only time this has ever happened to me is when I put the wrong vinyl in by mistake……. maybe you have a faulty roll.

I would get a few other samples in of other media and give that a go… otherwise, heat setting on the printer rob?

[KeithLD50]

I have tried different media and I go through rolls of the Roland media often so I have tried this one numerous different rolls and its the same thing. It has to do with the inks, the clear does not adhere to the inks properly, it will only pull off the print in areas that are printed with the eco sol max inks, parts where white vinyl shows through, it stays stuck to the actual vinyl. So it comes down to the liquid clearcoats not adhering to the inks. And if I let the inks cure for a few days, sometimes the clear will actually pull up parts of the print with the application tape. I know this has happened to alot of other people because its been discussed on other places across the net as well, but I never seem to see a solution besides going to a film laminate. I was basically trying to see if there was a liquid clear that has been used that wont do this. I am going to try the Forg Juice and see what the results are, if I still have the problem I will try what was previously posted and maybe switch to a clear vinyl to use as a film laminate.

[Chris Wool]

from bitter experience.
if application tape is involved then do not use a liquid laminate of any make or type, if may look fine as you leave the job but will fail latter as the adhesion is weakened

use the machine as it was designed print then film laminate then cut.
as Gert said you can use clear of the same or better quality as the vinyl printed on. with superb results and durability.

[Mo Gillis-Coates]

There’s the answer then……. Vinyl clear overlaminate it is!

[KeithLD50]

Yea, that sounds like a better idea, so I will go with the film laminate and it will hopefully solve the issues.

[Shane Drew]

quote KeithLD50:

Hey guys,
I have tried using various brands of liquid clearcoatings / overlaminates on Roland Eco Sol ink prints on vinyl and even using a low tack application tape, the clearcoats partially pull up off the ink / print layer and ruin the vinyl decal. I have tried applying the liquid clearcoatings right after printing and also after letting the vinyl prints “cure” for up to 72 hours or more and then applying the liquid clear. Both have had issues with the clearcoating pulling up off the print or even pulling parts of the print off the vinyl. Can this be solved using a film overlaminate or will that still have the same issues? Please let me know, this is getting very frustrating to say the least!

I use an aquaseal clear liquid coating system without any major problems. I application tape everything.

The ecosol inks are not compatible with the standard liquid laminates though. When I was using Techink full solvent inks, I could buy any liquid laminate off the shelf. When I changed over, I had exactly the same issues as you have experienced.

I went back to the aquaseal distributors, and they told me that I had to change my liquid laminate to one for eco inks.

I was using the aquaseal 500 series, which until I changed to eco sol, worked exceptionally well. I was told that Eco inks need the 600 series. Since I have changed, I’ve had no issues at all.

I tried to use clear star the other day as the rep came in and tried to sell me his brand as a cheaper alternative. The first time I used it, once I applied application tape, it ripped off.

My advice is to find a supplier that manufactures for the eco sol formulation. Aquaseal 600 series works the best I’ve tried. I have no problem suggesting it to anyone in our situation.

Hope that helps

[KeithLD50]

Thanks, I will look into the Aquaseal as well if it works good with application tape on the eco sol inks. Any idea on the sizes / pricing on the 600 series so I know what I am getting into?

[Shane Drew]

quote KeithLD50:

Thanks, I will look into the Aquaseal as well if it works good with application tape on the eco sol inks. Any idea on the sizes / pricing on the 600 series so I know what I am getting into?

I can only quote australian prices, which would be no good for you. check the product out here http://tinyurl.com/435zh3r

[Stephen Morriss]

I’ve just found it much easier to use film laminate, clear of the same make and series in my case.

I can go down to tiny stickers and still cut them fine, go slow on the cut though as the extra thickness makes the vinyl lag behind slightly if you cut fast.

Steve

[Gary Birch]

quote Stephen Morriss:

I’ve just found it much easier to use film laminate, clear of the same make and series in my case.

I can go down to tiny stickers and still cut them fine, go slow on the cut though as the extra thickness makes the vinyl lag behind slightly if you cut fast.

Steve

I have to agree, had a dabble with frog juice but the film is much easier in my opinion.

Cheers

Gary

[KeithLD50]

I contacted the Aquaseal rep in the US, they are actually very close to where I live. I am hoping to get a sample of the 600 series laminate to test out, I hope this doesnt prove to be difficult because the rep mentioned sending them a 15 foot section of material so they could test the 600 series on it. Shouldnt they already be aware of how this works on sign vinyl? I gave him the info on what machine and material I was already using. Sounds a little ridicoulous to mail them a huge section of material, especially a printed section 15 feet long?!? I simply asked him to provide me with a small sample of the Aquaseal 600 so I can test it out. Hopefully they are able to help me out.

[Alan.Lawrence]

quote KeithLD50:

Thanks, I will look into the Aquaseal as well if it works good with application tape on the eco sol inks. Any idea on the sizes / pricing on the 600 series so I know what I am getting into?

Keith,it is a fact that most liquid laminates do not adhere well to eco solvent inks.Clearstar or Marabu as they are now known introduced a product CSX5000 which adheres well to eco solvent and the UV inks(another difficult ink system for adhesion).I would advise that you let you prints dry for a least 24 hours before coating. Also remember that although the coating appears dry on the prints after a few hours, full through drying is only really achieved after 24 hours plus.

[Alan.Lawrence]

Hi in the UK you can get the CSX5000 from Landor UK http://www.landoruk.com/.