Gerber/Spandex Jester Vinyl/Ink Problems

[Robert Lambie]

hi mate.. i dont have the printer.. but was kinda confused about the question.
do you mean the print is fading on exterior applications?
or, do you mean the vinyl is pulling in recessed areas of the van?

[Cabbage]

Hello

I’m a bit confused myself as usual.

It pulls out of the recesses and the vinyl separates from the laminate and the ink all falls off if it isn’t protected by the laminate. Spandex sold us the printer under false pretences, in my opinion. They seemed to think you can stick it on anything when you use the ‘proper vinyl’, i.e. You buy it from them, but it doesn’t.

The problem stems from the fact that the inks are so-called Eco-friendly and don’t adhere to the vinyl as well as an Arizone print so you have to laminate it and then it is far too thick to bend around corners etc. Spandex alleged you could stretch it by 400%. I would suggest a more accurate figure of 0%.

Just thought it would be nice (I was bored) to hear how other people have done it and if they have managed to make it work.

I’ll stop ranting now.

[Rodney Gold]

The Ecosol inks need coated media AFAIK.
You have to use a polymeric media , not monomeric for conformable graphics- Tho would expect the supplier to give you the right stuff?.

As to laminating , you should us a liquid lamination or a hotish pressure lamination like GMP’smicronex which is really not a film , its a sort of “glue” which is melted onto the surface and conforms cos it is 8 mil thick , its the cheapest lamination as well as bing water and chemical reisitant , it doesnt change the properties of the print at all.
You have to laminate vehicle graphics – dust, grit, abraision by washing and the chemicals used for washing will destroy any print no matter how it was printed.
Now if your machine has Epson heads , there is a new solvent based ink that sticks to almost any vinyl that is preheated to 40 degree C (as well as uncoated papers , cloth , canvas etc. – this might be a retrofit for your machine
(I have looked at the specs and am sure its almost the Same as the Roland machines , and it talks about Mutoh ink compatibility and Mutoh launced a new set of more “true” solvent inks , look at their site Im sure you can use em)
Or you could rig up a heater and just change inksets – most profiles will work with this too. This inkset and heater combo print is very scratch resistant and you can print on polymeric uncoated vinyl from any supplier with more agressive adhesives.

There is not point in printing on Vinyl that conformable only to laminate it with something that isnt conformable . Are you using heat to conform it?
Have you only wrapped or tried to conform laminated stuff – does the same thing happen when you tried unlaminated vinyl? Are the surfaces
you are applying been properly prepared? do you only use the machine for this or have you had the same problems in other applications?
I would dig a little deeper to find exactly the reasons you are having these problems? It could be a combination of things.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Cabbage
Info …. Gerber Jetster is a Mutoh Rockhopper rebadged.
Are you using ecSolvent inks in your Jetster?
Are you then overlaminating those prints prior to application to a vehicle?
Regards Dave Standen

[Cabbage]

Hi Rodney and Dave..

Thank you for your replies.

Yep, we are using all the right stuff, conformable vinyl with conformable laminate. And Eco-the-dolphin ink. And we bought a big hot laminator to stick it all together. And I think we get all the basic stuff right. Have plastered unsuspecting vehicles in acres of Edge print and the like, without any problems.

We just had a van come back in this morning for us to look have a look round and it wasn’t too bad….I guess..as long as you don’t mind paying two-and-a-half grand for graphics that make you scared to drive off too quickly…

Might give Mister Mutoh a go with some of his more aggresive ink. Or maybe flog it and buy something else. Anyone want a “Jester” going cheap?!

[Dave Standen]

Hi Cabbage
If you’re using ecoSolvent inks you should NOT overlaminate prints.
If you do – you trap any solvent evaporate between the print and the overlaminate. This evaporate will soften the solvent based adhesive – and the overlaminate will part company with the printed vinyl. You will get a ‘bubble’ in all printed areas.
Does this make sense? Is this what your doing?
Your ecoSolvent ink should NOT be overlaminated. It should be durable enough anyway. You can print onto special coated media, or – if the ecSolvent inks are good – straight onto naked vinyl.
Best Regards Dave Standen

[Rodney Gold]

I think your problem might be related to the hot lamination , we have a large format laminator and laminate coated media a lot – but never hot – always cold pressure lamination or use micronex which is hot , but at a far lower temperature than traditional “hot”.
We also wait at least 24 hours for the print to cure.
With the new solvent inks we can laminate almost immediately
I work mainly for the industry and am not the cheapest in town , however a lot of signage guys have been burned by going for the cheaper unlaminted route my competitor with a true solvent printer takes and come to us 2nd time round for the right stuff.

Dave
The coated media that takes the eco solvent inks is not at all suitable for vehicle graphics if unlaminated , the coating and printing scratch off very easily and one wash with detergent or a scrubbing brush or sponge is all it takes to destroy or mar them – the prints are water resistant , but not at all waterproof or chemical proof.
We often laminate just to “punch” out the graphics or for various effects , like anti-glare and have had no problems at all.
Delamination and bubbling will result if you laminate “wet” prints or laminate with the incorrect stuff.
I wont give any guarantee at all for unlaminated vehicle graphics or indeed any graphics that are handled , without overlamination.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Cabbage/Rod
Now what do we mean by EcoSolvent Inks?
The first real EcoSolvent inks are from Lysons. Others have followed from Roland, however the Roland inks are not the same – a better name would be NearSolvent.

EcoSolvent Inks (Lysons) print onto naked vinyl & require no lamination
Roland & possibly others require special coated vinyl – or lamination
Jetster(Mutoh Rockhopper) seems to have various inks available. Just launched by Mutoh is indeed an EcoSolvent ink to print on naked vinyl. Inks prior to ‘just now’ may have carried the EcoSolvent name but could not printonto naked media.

The only EcoSolvent inks able to print onto naked vinyl are from Lysons and ‘just now’ Mutoh. ….. But watch this space, you’ll soon have another choice.

Come on Cabbage – what are you using?
Your problem is within the laminating process, Rods advice re allowing 24hr for curing is also good – but don’t leave the print rolled up! Allow the evaporates to evaporate like they should.

Regards Dave Standen

[Cabbage]

I’m coming on…Honest!

I was using Avery SEM 1005 with Avery cast laminate. All this wide-format stuff was all new to us and we went on the recommendation of Spandex as to what to use and what to do with it. We also use the 2010 non-conformable stuff and laminate that as well.

We leave them for at least 24 hours to dry before we do anything to the graphics. We buy the vinyl and ink from Spandex. (75 quid (I think) for 20 CCs)They call it “Eco-Solvent” ink but recommend laminating all of it after 24 hours.

Soooo, Lyson Eco-Solvent ink will print onto uncoated vinyl and need no lamination..?? Hmmm Sounds good to me.

Cheers

Cabbage

[Dave Standen]

Hi Cabbage
Your machine is capable of using the Mutoh EcoSolvent ink – that is their NEW formula to print onto naked vinyl. Prices will be similar to what you pay now. You will then be able to print onto naked vinyl. You should contact Velmex (Mutoh main agents) Tel:020 8255 4449 for detailed advice.

You will probobly have to flush out your machine plumbing with 2 lots of cleaning cartridges before you use the NEW EcoSolvent ink.

Make sure they understand what you want! It’s their new product, but you know what it’s like getting a bum stear.

Lysons inks may be too argressive for the Jetster(Rockhopper). However -Lysons also market the Rockhopper as the Tiara with their Pentachrome inks, but I believe your best or 1st line should be Velmex.

Let us all know what the ouitcome is.
Regards Dave Standen

[Rodney Gold]

The Roland inkset and heater bar for the EX (and the soljet pro series which can be upgraded) machines print on a lot of uncoated media.
I have printed on all vinyls (clear , transluscent etc), abs , that stuff with holes , holographic foils , spectrum lite laserable foils , laser engraveable rigid substrates , cloth , paper , canvas, banner , acetate and laminating film – it can also be used with coated stock if one wishes.

Currently Im trying rigid cromodek (thin white epoxied sign metal) thats been sprayed with clear laquer – seems like the inks take to anything sprayed with clear laquer like shiny aluminium sheeting etc – if it sticks it prints reasonably well. I can print onto substrates 1mm thick.

When I got my Roland Soljet Pro II , I could only print onto coated media – the new inkset is odourless etc (we run it in a closed room) and allows naked printing on vinyl with a much more durable print – its also called an Eco ink
I think all the machines with Epson heads and space for a heater can use these inks. The heater heats to about 40 degrees C.

[Cabbage]

Hi Dave and Rodney.

Thank you for all that.

I have phoned them and they said the ink will be available in 10-14 days time.

Will let you know what it’s like when we get a batch. They also said they have a kit of stuff to wash the pipes out. Or maybe I’ll just save a bit of me pint on the way home….

Must think of a new question now.

Thank you for all your replies, everyone.

Charlie

[Jon Aston]

The amount of (albeit well-meaning) mis-information above is staggering.

I would recommend contacting Spandex for clarification about what you should be using / doing for this application. They know more about the system than anyone else.

Personally, I don’t care for the AVERY SEM 1005 product. Avery didn’t get the print treatment right…stays tacky. I believe that Spandex recently introduced a new (conformable) cast film for Jetster in their ImagePerfect line.

If you want long-term durability, you would have to be nuts not to overlaminate inkjet prints for vehicle applications, in my opinion — regardless of what you might hear. Choose whatever conformable, pressure-sensitive vinyl overlaminate that Spandex recommend. I wouldn’t recommend using heat-activated overlaminates — However,you will find that running a bit of heat will help you get better results faster with pressure sensitives.

Hope that helps a bit…do talk to Spandex, though.

[Bob Gilliland]

Jon,

A quote from you on another board:

quote :

Please qualify your statement about “the other features” that outperform the MAXX.

Considering you have tasked others, I now ask the same of you.

quote :

The amount of (albeit well-meaning) mis-information above is staggering.

What in your view is “mis-information” from above?? Enlighten those of use that are ignorant and know no difference please (and that would be me by the way).

[Dave Standen]

Hi Bob
Looks like an international discussion about the the Jetster!
Have I said anything that’s wrong or incorrect? You seem to be more in agreement than not. Hope I’m not misleading anyone.
So what’s ‘EdgeUcators’ and your other names all about?
I’ve had a look at your website – quite mysterious!
Have you an old post to refer me to?
Regards Dave Standen

[Cabbage]

Crikey!! I didn’t mean to start a war!!

Advice from the lovely people at Spandex can usually be condensed down to “Buy this! (from us!)”.

We did follow all their advice. They recommended the vinyl and everything else…..

Talking about ‘mysterious’, there was a mysterious moment when one of my colleagues pointed out to the rep from Spandex that they offered a guarantee on the conformable SEM 1005 vinyl and another guarantee on the suitable conformable laminate, but only if they were stuck on flat surfaces.

Is it me…..??!!

[Jon Aston]

Bob:

Not my intent to offend…apologies to all if I have done so. Poor choice of words. Very pressed for time of late…haste makes waste and all that…and you’re right to call me on that, Bob. Not the first time in my life that I’ve tasted crow.(…YECH!).

Plenty of little things above got stuck in my craw…advising Cabbage(?) to switch ink systems without any consideration given to media profiles sticks in my mind. Strikes me as trading one problem for (potentially) many others.

I wasn’t privvy to the conversations that led to Cabbage’s buying decision…but it sounds to me that perhaps the sales rep in question didn’t fully qualify his client’s intentions/needs…maybe Cabbage wasn’t clear at the time eaither (it happens…happened with the first post in this thread). Personally, I wouldn’t sell Jetster (nor any of the other eco-solvent machines) for doing vehicle wraps.

Jetster’s primary strength as an entry level system is ease of use…in large part because Spandex include media profiles for an excellent range of treated, ImagePerfect media…for the existing ink set, using their Mistral RIP (ditto for ImageRIP users, BTW). Jetster’s percieved weakness (moderately higher printing costs) is negated by the minimal learning curve required to start printing for profit within hours of uncrating it…all with nowhere near the materials and time($$$) wastage (from Trial and error) that is so often the case with many other entry level inkjets. No need to jerry-rig a dryer or buy a third party dryer, either.

It isn’t at all unrealistic to project ROI in 6 months for Jetster. At which point Cabbage can look at expanding again…perhaps by investing in a Tomahawk, or an ARIZONA.

IMHO Cabbage(?) should persist with Spandex…go over his current contact’s head if necessary and get the answers he needs from them.

I hope that (in part) serves to clarify my comments above.

[Bob Gilliland]

Cabbage,

No war from my perspective.

Jon,

Thanks for the follow up post. I can truly appreciate and sympathize with the “time” issue you are currently experiencing (preparing to head out myself very soon). All the more reason I appreciate the fast follow up. Also understand how a “under the pressure of time restraints”, a post doesn’t always get the attention it could/should deserve before being posted. Been there myself in the past and feel comfortable it will happen again in the future (unfortunately).

I truly was most interested in what you thought was incorrect. As you and I have discussed publicly and privately in the past, you hold a very good “company line” and this does elicit possible doubts for me at times. This was most definitely one of those times. Wanted to digest what you had to say against the other information presented to date. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks again for your time.

Dave,

Not sure I follow, so please bear with me if I don’t hit the mark the first time.

I don’t believe I said anything from a relative content standpoint in this post, either in agreement or not. Additionally, I don’t feel comfortable enough with my current knowledge level on this particular subject matter to be posting any “pro” or “com” arguments or observations regarding the subject matter.

Edgeucators is a web based extension of InKnowVative Communications that will be providing services and information to the color thermal community. Unfortunately, time restraints issues that “we” all face are very much affecting the progress of that task currently. Discussions continue with various players within the industry as well as actual site design and content considerations. I have reviewed the “larger picture” with Robert and hope to make some type of “formal” post relative to the site once it warrants it.

As for all the other names, they are wholly owned subsidiaries of the parent corporation I currently work for, The InKnowVative Groups, Inc. Only two of them are currently active; InKnowVative Display & Sign Studio is the sign company that produces various signage and advertising based products while InKnowVative Communications is a training and consulting business that provides services and solutions to the trade (and some related industries) at large. InKnowVative Technologies exists mainly as a “paper entity” at this time and probably won’t see that status change in the foreseeable future. The “front” door of the site is for the most part, “locked” down. Unless one has been given specific URL’s, the site is “nothing much”. Although not exactly happy about that status currently, I’m content with it relative to other more pressing issues.

As for any old post to refer you to; yes plenty. Perform a search using my name on this site, the Edge based site, or the Letterville website. Plenty of information to read up on if interested.

[Cabbage]

🙄 (I hate smilies) I voz just kidding with the war bit.(Sigh)

Anyway, Spandex recommended the Jetster when we told them what we going to be up to. In the end, though, we lost the contract partly because of the Jester not being right for the job and some other reasons. (None of them were MY fault).

The poor old Jester sits there most of the time not doing a lot. Fun to play with, though…

What’s the best market to aim at for Jetster stuff, then?! Just interested to know what has worked for other people (again).

Charlie

[Jon Aston]

OK Bob.

Glad we’re square.

You didn’t really state whether or not you were satisfied with the qualification I provided, though — as (rightly) requested.

Satisfied?

[Bob Gilliland]

Satisfied, content, pleased, fulfilled, etc.

Thanks again for the extra time.

[Dave Standen]

Hi Cabbage
So I’m back – Just kept one step back to see the results that our little ‘tete a te’ brought on! Quite an exchange! Can’t say I understood a lot of Jon’s info in his reply to Bob however, seems to be full of sales speak for your favorite supplier, well at least you now have an alternative to turn to.
Your Jetster:
It’s a shame you’ve been let down so badly to end up loosing a contract – seems like you’re left holding the baby. You now know the hard way that sales speak can land you deep in sticky stuff if an intimate understanding of the technical process is not passed onto you the operator/seller of the output. You’re at the pointed end, sales speak doesn’t address that.
Was info from Velmex helpfull? – what do they have to offer?
What is the current position on durablity of prints and overlamination?
Regards Dave Standen

[Dave Standen]

Hi Rod
Sorry I haven’t replied direct to you – there’s been a lot to read!
Your experience in SA I’m sure is valid – but maybe there are materials available in UK (or USA) soon perhaps to be available in SA. Your crowd are just too clever in finding solutions by different routes and ingenuity. Sometimes I suppose necessity is the mother of invention and you guys are not slow in coming forward with unique solutions!
However:
I’m not a vinyl manufacturer or vinyl expert. BUT EcoSolvent inks make claims that SHOULD stand up in the field. To overlaminate a solvent based print with a clear material with a solvent based adhesive will have the result – adhesive AND ink will soften and part company with each other, the trapped evaporates will soften both adhesive and ink. A ‘NearSolvent ‘ink (that’s my word) would NOT have that effect. But ‘NearSolvent is another animal that cannot print on naked vinyl!
There’s a lot of mileage in who’s selling what ink under what name yet!
So ‘EcoSolvent’ or ‘NearSolvent’ ink – which name is correct?

Can you give other protection? Liquid, spray or whatever? Maybe – but that would be down to particular experiment. You suggest a liquid lamination – it may work – but that’s quite the problem that Cabbage had.

My advice to Cabbage was to consult with the main Euro distributor for Mutoh who are the manufacturers of the machine. A Jetster is a re-badged Rockhopper. (Most inkjets out there are re-badged ‘somethings’)One day I’ll publish a list. The manufacturer is able to provide the correct technical information in full – that’s what Cabbage was lacking. He now has an alternative source – he can vote with his feet! – or not – his choice.
I haven’t advised any ink changes – I have advised of an accurate source of information, that may also have an update on inks for that machine, as well as being an alternate supplier of exactly what he is already using.
I think Cabbage got all the right info from them.

Roland – Are you using a Roland and printing on uncoated media with good durablity? Tell me all about it

Regards
Dave Standen

[Dave Standen]

Hi Jon in Canada
Thanks for your opinions (albeit well mean’t) posted earlier
(I shall have to find out how to use the quote buttons)

Is any specific piece of information I have offered miss-information in your opinion? Please correct me on any specific incorrect statement of information that I have posted.

I look forward to your reply
Best Regards Dave Standen

[Rodney Gold]

Hiya

Lamination does not use solvents , there is hot lamination which basically melts a sheet with a glue backing to the substrate and cold pressure lamination (which is what you use on vinyl – hot cant be used , well it can , see later) whiich is the same as applying vinyl under high pressure between 2 rollers to the substrate , then there is a hybrrid which uses a lower temp and melts an 8 microm layer of chemical and water resistant glue on the graphic. (I have used it on the old eco solvent coated media – it works a charm)

Eco solvent printed to a coating will work , the coating is actually a solvent based “laquer” which adheres to the vinyl and accepts the ink , essentially if the coating is not well applied , you will have problems , however the problem with vehicle graphics is not water resistance or UV resistance , it is abraison and whether you screen , full solvent print , thermal print whatever , that problem is there for ALL print technologys.

The only thing that can evaporate once a print is dry are plasticisers in the vinyl itself but this will never be enough to actually cause bubbling between a cold pressure laminate and a coated print.
The solvents in the inks evaoprate VERY quickly , its the other bits that are slower drying that are problematic.
Claims are made and they probably are true – if the wind is behind , the path downhill , the sun is shining and the squirrels are scampering;)
Tru solvent inks are somewhat toxic and are really agressive , however they stick BUT cos of the fact they soften and penetrate the vinyl and sort of “spread” the definiton suffers – thats the downside (apart from the fact that they attack parts in the machines)
Liquid lamination IS a compromise , and if the vinyl conforms a lot , the lamination sort of “cracks” and you have unprotected areas – this is still better than NO lamination at all
Im printing with the new Roland inks and heater bar – with EXCEPTIONAL durability (you cant scratch the inks off – you destroy the vinyl) on certian substrates like uncoated vinyl etc – I have printed on holggrpahic film , on matt and gloss laminating film , zillions of vinyls , canvas , fabrics , various coated papers etc – HOWEVER the output on the coated media is better than all in terms of resolution (the spreading thing) but far worse in terms of durability – albeit its dry off the printer (or almost so)
A lot of countries were legislating against true solvent inks , thats why the “green” solvent inks were developed – not cos the printer manufacturers are environmentally concerned. PVC its self is a dreadful stuff , when burnt emits all sorts of nasty things (that why we dont cut it often in a laser – the chlorine combines with watervapour to form hydrochloric acid which tends to destroy laser mechanisms)
I would imagine all these inks are sourced from one place and labled by the various printer mnfgrs – there is a place in aussie that sells refillable cartriges identical to the rolands- thing is – if you have a warrantee or a service contract on the heads – you want to use the recommended inks unless you want to replace the heads at your own cost.

[Cabbage]

Hi Dave

Yeah, I was too scared to write for a while as well….!

We didn’t mind too much losing the contract. Long story… There are always other ones.

I am waiting to hear back from that lot I phoned about the new ink. They said they will phone me back in two weeks time when it becomes available. Hope so. If it is as good as they seem to think it is, it will open up a whole new can of worms, er, world, I mean for the Jester.

I shall write as soon as I hear anything intelligent from them!

Charlie

[Mike Antrum]

Just one point to bear in mind –

The new ink is great, same stuff as Rockhopper II/SolJet Ex/VersaCamm by all accounts, but it is not much use if they have not got the new ink profiled for your RIP software/media combinations.

I would make sure that you can get the RIP profiles before switching the ink over. In my experience you get the ink three weeks before the RIP profiles are available.

I think you will get a new lease of life from your Jetster.

Regards

Mike Antrum
Solutions 2