Firemans Switch when and where to use ( UK )

[David Rogers]

As I see it – if it’s left on after hours it needs an external switch to isolate the power…any and all mains powered signs that are not capable of being switched off (due to access issues) need one.

Dave

[Dave Harrison]

Dave thats what I would have thought however . the more I look the more I see illuminated signs without them ! !

[David Rogers]

If somebody has an up to date IEE 16th Edition of ‘the regs’ handy to see what the current (no pun intended) legislation is on fireman’s switches…

probably be something over the top like gas tight brass gland fittings, 2.5mm ‘pyro’ from consumer unit to signage without joins or junction boxes… 🙄

when a loop of 1.5 T&E would suffice….

Dave

[Martin Pearson]

Dave I don’t think you would get the correct answer from 16th Edition or BS7671 as it covers fixed electrical installations and it is debatable whether lightboxes are classed as fixed or portable equipment. If they were portable they should still fall under PAT testing but it seems to be a Grey area.

[David Rogers]

quote martin:

Dave I don’t think you would get the correct answer from 16th Edition or BS7671 as it covers fixed electrical installations and it is debatable whether lightboxes are classed as fixed or portable equipment. If they were portable they should still fall under PAT testing but it seems to be a Grey area.

Lightboxes (and the like) are not really a grey area – it is the manner in which they get wired that determines the 16th ed or PAT. If on a 2m lead with a plug on the end – portable appliance – NO qualifications required to install, not even legally bound to put an ELCB inline. If however, you hardwire into a switched fused outlet spur or into the existing lighting circuit then 16th ed IEE applies.

A popular ‘get out’ for signmakers is to get the customer to supply a socket near the sign & run a cable with a plug on the end.

If done this way ‘technically’ a fireman’s switch is NOT required…it would be up to the installer / supplier of the socket to ensure it’s end use (as they obviously KNOW what it’s going to be for) complies.

Dave

ps. It’s been a looong time since I ‘read’ the regs book, must brush up on it!

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi
found this on the net, Firemens switch requirements found on page 2, i have always been of the belief that firemens switches have always only been required for High Voltage ie Neon etc.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fi … mation.pdf

Kev

[Peter Normington]

I dont know the regs, but any fireman worth his salt would not even look for a switch, far quicker to cut the cable with his chopper,

sorry being flippant.

But seriously I can see the reason to have a switch, where high voltage is concerned,

Thanks for the link Kevin

Peter

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi
the actual problem is that most supply cables are internal of the sign. The concern with Neon etc is that the high voltage (600v upwards) is enough to travel through the water back to the firefighter holding the hose.

Kev

[David Rogers]

Good link Kevin…crashes my machine, but got me looking for the regs!

Dug this up:

quote :

Where any circuit operates at a p.d. (potential difference) exceeding low voltage a fireman’s emergency switch must be provided. Such installations usually take the form of discharge lighting (neon signs), and this requirement applies for all external systems as well as internal signs which operate unattended. The purpose is to ensure the safety of fire fighters who may, if a higher voltage system is still energised, receive dangerous shocks when they play a water jet onto it. The fireman’s switch is not required for portable signs consuming 100 W or less which are supplied via an easily accessible plug and socket.

The fireman’s switch must meet the following requirements

1. – The switch must be mounted in a conspicuous position not more than 2.75m from the ground.

2. – It must be coloured red and have a label in lettering at least 13 mm high ‘FIREMAN’S SWITCH’. On and off positions should be clearly marked, and the OFF position should be at the top. A lock or catch should be provided to prevent accidental reclosure.

3. – For exterior installations the switch should be close to the load, or to a notice in such a position to indicate clearly the position of the well-identified switch.

4. – For interior installations, the switch should be at the main entrance to the building.

5. – Ideally, no more than one internal and one external switch must be provided. Where more become necessary, each switch must be clearly marked to indicate exactly which parts of the installation it controls.

6. – Where the local fire authority has additional requirements, these must be followed.

7. – The switch should be arranged on the supply side of the step-up sign transformer.

‘low voltage’ defined as sub 1000vac

So, neon – apso-flaming-lutely!

Looks like bog-standard fluorescent – not required…just as well ‘cos I’ve only ever spec’d them on neon signs anyway!!

[Alex Wilson]

Hi All

I always install a fireman switch as standard on neon signs but one of my old customers had an exterior neon sign installed by someone else years ago with the old Tunewell type transformers with the lid on the top. (All lids now if removed cut the power to the sign if I am correct) The lid on the old tunewell unit was left off and filled up with water one night until it reached the terminals. By my customers accounts the sparks were flying 10ft in the air as the transformer arc’ed across the terminals. The fire department were called and somehow the power was switched off. On closer examination of the sign the next morning the tubes did not even have silicon sleeves on the electrodes. How someone was not seriously hurt was beyond me. Safety when installing neon signs is paramount and if you do not know whatyou are doing get a qualified fitter to install for you.

Best wishes
Alex

[Graeme Harrold]

This is the electricians bible when it comes to electrical installations:

Paragraph 476-03-05 states (page 77 if you have a copy):

quote :

A firemans switch shall be provided in the low voltage circuit supplying:
(i) Exterior lighting installations operating at a voltage exceeding low voltage (over 50V)

So unless your using 12/24V then you will need an external switch that is CLEARLY marked as such, and of course correctly positioned as per building regs.

Judging by what has gone before its a yes, but this is the definitive answer as far as electrical installations go…..all those without are in breach of the Electricity at work act!!!!

Hope this helps

[Kevin Flowers]

Graeme
below is an extract from above link as people where struggling to open it, but it states 1000v. where did you source your info.

Date Last Amended: 30 May 06 2.
Issued by the – Fire Officer, UCL, Estates & Facilities, Gower Street, London, WC1E 6BT.
Fire-fighters’ Switches for Luminous Tube Signs etc – prescribed ‘ High Voltage
apparatus consisting of luminous tube signs (Cold Cathode Lighting etc) designed to
at a voltage normally exceeding the prescribed voltage, or other equipment so designed equipment.
The ‘ prescribed voltage ’ means:
(a). 1000 volts AC or 1500 volts DC if measured between any two conductors;
or (b). 600 volts AC or 900 volts DC if measured between a conductor and earth,
(c). No apparatus is to be installed unless it is provided a to a cut-off switch on the
Low voltage side of the facility to be closed down in an emergency, normally through some form of firefighter’s switch.
(d). These switches are generally provided at the main fire alarm panel or fire brigade control point, but may be provided locally to the hazard where necessary.
controls MUST comply in position, colour and marking with the current regulations of the Institution of Electrical Engineers for a fire fighter ’ s emergency switch
simple explanatory diagrams, where appropriate.
(e). As required by the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 – Article 37.

[Peter Normington]

Peter

[Graeme Harrold]

Again from BS7671 16Ed a low voltage is defined as being above "extra low" (50V AC or 120V DC) but not above 1000V ac or 1500V DC between conductors, or 600V AC or 900V DC between conductors and earth.

Therefore any external discharge light must be fitted with a means of isolation, and as I mentioned earlier covers the vast majority of exterior lit signage.

[Graeme Harrold]

HANDS FULLY UP………KEVIN YOUR QUOTE IS CORRECT THE VALUE IS ABOVE 1000V ac FOR LOW VOLTAGE SUPPLIES……SORRY ALL FOR THE CONFUSION, JUST GLAD I SPOTTED MY FOPAR WHEN QUOTING THE REGS.

Therefore for a typical 240V domestic supply its not required.

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi Graeme
not problem the discussion has probably made a few people look at how they are installing which is what the forum’s about.

Kev

[Graeme Harrold]

If you look at my two posts with the quotes you can see quite clearly where I went wrong!!!! MUPPET

With my day job (Army) most of the safety regs miss use terminology which caused a little confusion…..

[Martin Pearson]

Kevin, I would like to think you are right in what you say and people actually stop and think about the installations they are doing but human nature in my opinion would suggest that those that haven’t been doing it correctly will take no notice of this post and just carry on as they are. i would like to be proved wrong though.

Graeme, the Armed Forces must have changed a bit over the last 10 years or so if you are actually working within Health & Safety guidelines !!!! I would imagine its only when it suit them though.

[Graeme Harrold]

Armed Forces are now ahead of most large businesses when it comes to H&S and are quite stringent on Electrical Regs esp open air power supplies. Even though they are exempt some areas, they still apply the letter of the law.

It does however get a little confusing when using their tighter rules, when applying different voltages to the same phraseology used in 16th Edtn.

Its all good fun especially when you have to do a safety case for a missile system!!!

Point to note on external signage…..PAT testing!!

[Martin Pearson]

Graeme, the Armed forces have always been quite stringent when it comes to electrical and mechanical procedures. I was actually thinking more about the personel rather than the equipment!!!!!

You are right about them still having certain exemptions, the phrase "Crown Exemption" still applies I am sure.

As for PAT testing of external Signage, this is sort of what I meant in my earlier post about lightboxes. I would bet that the vast majority of boxes that are fitted via a plug and socket have never been tested. I am not saying that people deliberately avoid having it done but the sockets are quite often hidden away up behind false ceilings and the guy doing the testing just assumes that the lightbox is hardwired and doesn’t give it another thought.

[Graeme Harrold]

Its a fallacy that PAT testing only applies to items with a plug. Certain items hard wired to a spur still come under PAT testing regulations.

Crown exemption is a term that’s long forgotten, the MOD still get visits from HSE and on occasions get prohibition notices served. There are a few Civil Servants getting twitchy over the corporate manslaughter bill going through Parliament!!

With regards to doing electrical installations they must be done by a competent/qualified person, and if you do a few, a PAT course is in the region of £150. I know Scotland have issues with non-electrical qualified persons doing PAT testing.