Fantasy-which would you choose

[Alan Wharton]

for that money a 54” cadet/grenadier/versacam print n cut. Well thats what iv asked the wife to get me for xmas 😛 she says it wont fit down the chimney tho 😥

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote Alan Wharton:

for that money a 54” cadet/grenadier/versacam print n cut. Well thats what iv asked the wife to get me for xmas 😛 she says it wont fit down the chimney tho 😥

Hi Alan, why one of these?

[John Childs]

Lorraine,

I’d go for separate printer and cutter. By combining the two you are going to get bottlenecks when you want to cut something urgent and your printer is in mid print, and vice versa. Much better to be able to do both jobs at the same time.

The only benefit that I can see to a print and cut machine is that it might save a bit of unloading and loading media between operations but, as practically everything we do is laminated, we have to do that anyway.

As we speak, the JV3 is knocking out prints and the CG-FX is contour cutting the stuff we printed yesterday and laminated this morning.

[Nick Minall]

As long as you have the room I would go for a stand-alone printer & separate cutter as I think the separate cutter is more useful, you can pint and cut at the same time.

[Lorraine Clinch]

Is there any huge difference in print quality between the Versacamm & JV3?

[Alan Wharton]

Suppliers iv spoke to about this have all told me most things that are printed need lamming as said above so if you go seperate printer/cutter/laminator thats 3 machines you need to find space for, if space isnt a issue then np, the other thing is 3 service contracts! ouch. we dont have the space for 3 machines but we do for 2 and when 1 machine can do the work of 2 why buy 2! i dont have a print n cut machine atm so i cannot really comment on what the main differences are between having a 2 machine print n cut/lamming machine and 3 seperates are but i would of thought both combinations would do the same thing. Swings and roundabouts and down to personnel preference i would say but me personnelly i will be going print and cut + lam machine.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Dammit!
I thought I was gonna get to choose between Fabio and Antonio Banderas!
Love….Jill

[John Harding]

I was going to say Marcella…. ….I’ll get my coat 🙂

John

[Gordon Forbes]

One machine print and cut If it ever gets so busy that you don’t have time to do all one one machine it’s time you bought a second print and cut machine in my opinion.
Goop

[Phill Fenton]

Print and cut machines are perfect for making labels. Print and cut in one operation. No need for crop marks and reloading the media.

I’m assuming you already have a cutter. In which case a print and cut machine would also give you a spare cutter should your main cutter go down. Space is also an issue. It’s all down to your own personal circumstances and the type of work you will be putting out.

[Brian Hays]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

Is there any huge difference in print quality between the Versacamm & JV3?

Print quality should be the same as they both use the same Epson heads. Depending on what RIP is running it of course.

[Colin Hibbitt]

lorraine,
Im in the situation that your talking about – we have a cadet which is working 6hrs a day every day – print n cut is very useful but im considering upgrading but to which machine
Ive looked at the eco ink machine which im not convinced about, ive considered the jv3 which ive heard some very good stories and also the grenidier which is now also is a great machine too
So which do i go for?? We just had a order for 85 5ftx2ft banners which the cadet knocked out in 2.5 days but on the other hand we had to quote for 20,000 10cmx150cm (250mtrs one colour on white) stickers which the print and cut system would be perfect for whereas the jv3 would be a pain.
So depending what you do most of would be the machine to go for – i my case print and cut would be better I THINK – ill let you know in the new year which i decide on

Colin

[David Rowland]

I had Stuart from AIT on the phone today… JV5 is £26K from them… interesting.. does make me wonder about trading mine in or sell it.

I would have liked print and cut but it so rare that we use that feature, we can cut around the damn print with a scalpal for a van? Does this take longer then 5 minutes anyway?

We went with Rollers gripping the print, well that is what JV3 is good at, production speeds and gripping.. its great.

The answer to your question JV3.. but the B&P’s are offering machines that will waranty bulk/cheaper ink then original ink, so this now becomes an important factor. To print cheap overrides all of the options.

[Peter Normington]

Just another factor to think about, mimaki give a 2year warranty on parts and laour, cadet only 1,

I am of the same mind as John C, and Dave R, two machines are better than one. You can loosley compare it with tv/video or washing machine/tumble dryer combos.
if one part goes wrong the other bit dosnt work either.
As for doing lots of decals, if you use the mimaki, you can die cut, so saving a lot off post production finishing.

I dont own an inkjet just yet, but I have made up my mind and told santa.

Peter

[Chris Dowd]

I was told today that there is a new HP either on the market, or about to be released. It’s 64", based on the HP 9000 or Seiko. The print speed is slower than the 9000 but at a price around the £10k mark (including rip if my memory serves me correct).

May be worth a look, and then getting a cutter to go with it. Should come well within your budget Lorraine.

[Lorraine Clinch]

Ooohhhh I want them all! All of you make such valid points, and there are so many good reasons for both types of machine.
I am going to have to do lots more research.
The other issue, of course is supplier/aftercare service, which could be a bit of a lottery in itself.

[David Lowery]

Can you hold out until May Lorraine?

At Sign UK you will have all the machines there and with each one competing for their share in the market, you should be able to get a great deal. I bought a couple of things at the show last year and got 20% discount on list price so it may be worth holding on.

[Lorraine Clinch]

I am thinking that I should wait Dave, trouble is, you know what us women are like, with money burning a hole in our pockets!!!

[David Lowery]

Send me your cheque book, building society book and any cash you have NOW and i’ll help you resist temptation 😀

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote Dave n Rob Lowery:

Send me your cheque book, building society book and any cash you have NOW and i’ll help you resist temptation 😀

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: Yeah right! 🙄

[Chris Dowd]

I’d certainly have a look now Lorraine, it’s a quiet time of year for buying this kind of equipment, and that Salesman will be wanting his Turkey on Christmas Day – discounts could be good!!

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Yup, Lorraine….either a pre-Christmas purchase (here you could write it off on this year’s taxes)
or a Sign UK deal of a lifetime!
But more importantly….Fabio or Antonio?
😉
Love….Jill

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

But more importantly….Fabio or Antonio?
😉
Love….Jill

Who? 🙄

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

Say you had about £16,000 to spend on a printer (would be your only one) of your choice, would you choose

a) a print & cut machine, (ie Versacamm)

b) a stand-alone printer & seperate cutter (ie JV3)

c) a flat-bed printer (ie the Roll-and…..think that is what it’s called)

and why?

All thoughts/opinions appreciated.

So no-one rates having a flat-bed then?

[Marcella Ross]

quote John Harding:

I was going to say Marcella…. ….I’ll get my coat 🙂

John

😳 ………… get your coat???? No get your glasses on John! :lol1:

[Marcella Ross]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

quote Jill Marie Welsh:

But more importantly….Fabio or Antonio?
😉
Love….Jill

Who? 🙄

Antonio Banderas I assume ………… mmmmm not bad Jill. But Fabio??????? Give me a break …………. you are kidding us with that one surely??????
Lorraine Fabio is a male model with big pecs and even bigger hair!!!!! The funniest thing I ever saw was when he ws opening a Rollercoaster ride and a pidgeon flew into his face and broke his nose!!!!!!!!! He came off the ride with blood all over his face and his hair was a mess ………… it was the funniest thing I have ever seen, I was falling of the chair laughing!!!!! :lol1:

[John Childs]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

So no-one rates having a flat-bed then?

Not unless you’ve got a lot of space to waste. 😀

Regards timing, I bought my printer this time last year and got a fair deal. The money I made with it from January to May far outweighed any saving I might have made by buying at SignUK. It worked for me, but then I had jobs waiting for a printer and your circumstances might be different.

If you are likely to be passing this way in the near future, and would like to see a printer in it’s natural environment with no pressure, then just give me a call. I would rather do that than fight my way through the crowds at SignUK, try to get the attention of a sales person, and then have a detailed discussion with somebody who wants to get away and talk to somebody else. I’m sure the vendors will disagree, but the impression I get is often they aren’t really interested in selling at the show. They are more interested in throwing bait as far and wide as they can and collecting names and phone numbers to attend to at their leisure later.

[Nigel Pugh]

Mr Childs, there is nothing I like better than to do a deal at Sign UK or any other exhibition, thats what I go for oh and meeting all you lovely people in the bar 😀

[David Lowery]

Duly Noted

THE DRINKS ARE ON NIGEL AT SIGN UK

Dave

[Steve Morgan]

I agree with John, you will never get someone to demonstrate all that a printer or combination machinecan do at a show. It would take to long.
I bought a VersaCamm, mainly because of space and because I work on my own I doubt that, even if I had enough work to keep 2 machines running, I could physically do it all alone. Also, since I only run one computer I wonder if it would be able to handle 2 machines without problems.
Before I bought my machine I spent about 2 hours using a demo with the salesman and I still left not having asked all the questions I wanted to.
Given the budget I think I would have bought the bigger machine.
Not sure where you are but if you wanted to visit I’d be more than happy to show the machine at work.
Steve

[Mike Robson]

quote John Childs:

I’m sure the vendors will disagree, but the impression I get is often they aren’t really interested in selling at the show. They are more interested in throwing bait as far and wide as they can and collecting names and phone numbers to attend to at their leisure later.

For the most part you’re right John. A lot of our customers base their view as to the success (or lack of it) of an exhibition on the number of leads they get. A few of them prefer to have a smaller number of good quality leads, but most go for quantity over quality.

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote Steve Morgan:

I bought a VersaCamm, mainly because of space and because I work on my own I doubt that, even if I had enough work to keep 2 machines running, I could physically do it all alone. Also, since I only run one computer I wonder if it would be able to handle 2 machines without problems.
Steve

I see what you are saying Steve. This was why I posted the question about employing someone, (in another section) – I was tossing around the idea of opening another shop in another town, having the printer run from there by an employee experienced in printing. I could continue this shop with cutting only, and we could both exchange files via email, when we got work in that the other could do.
Otherwise I shall just have to go on a huge learning curve myself, and hope for the best!!!

[Joanne Maney]

Hi Lorraine

I have been looking at similar options recently. I spoke with a few people about hybrids (roll and Rigid) and there are a couple of new ones around that look interesting but they dont cut as well.
One candidate is the new Picasso printer from Solaris it looks good on vinyl and will take 10mm rigid material. I was also offered a cutter as a bundle after I subjected them to some feminine charm.

Happy hunting

Joanne

[Lorraine Clinch]

Thanks everyone for your comments-keep ’em coming!

I now have another one to think about, as I’ve put in another post today- the JV4. This looks as though it could be the one for me, although as someone has pointed out, it’s not solvent, but can do everything I could want it to, as long as it lives up to the manufacturers promises.
it seems to have had some good reviews, just haven’t heard of it before.

Hopefully people will be able to come up with some comments overnight.

[John Childs]

quote Nigel Pugh – Grafityp:

Mr Childs, there is nothing I like better than to do a deal at Sign UK or any other exhibition

I’m sure you do Nigel, because you’re that sort of person. Unfortunately, not all your staff think the same way. 🙁

I have to say though, I am not unsympathetic. It must be a nightmare trying to distinguish the serious buyers from the absolute timewasters. Plus all those shades in between, who might not be buying immediately, but need keeping sweet for a potential sale in the future.

I also sympathise with stand staff if they might be just a tad less enthusiatic after three days of standing on their feet in that environment.

[Robert Lambie]

quote Dave n Rob Lowery:

Duly Noted

THE DRINKS ARE ON NIGEL AT SIGN UK

Dave

correction, the drinks will be ON nigel :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

i bought the grenadier over the jv3 a couple of years back. the built in contour cut facility gave it the edge in my opinion and that was that.

ill not repeat what has already been said… all good points.

one thing i found since we bought our machine. we have made so much money on stickers alone… having a seperate cutting machine would have been a nightmare. 😕
back on the days of our old steam driven pc60, we offered stickers… done short 10 sticker runs to maximum about 500… took forever and money wasnt great due to speed and running costs.
since having the grenadier we began pushing "hand over jobs" i.e. stickers, banners, popups etc
on stickers and labels alone we run 1000’s at a time… the printer prints in batches and then contour cuts… we arent even in the room while the machine prints away, finishes, then begins cutting… come back, trim off job and on with another batch… it is that easy… that couldnt be done with seperate machine for obvious reasons. its also more likely to track off if not loaded properly, so you stand the chance of losing the prints…

dave rowlands right, if you have to contour cut a big graphic, 5 minutes does it with a scalpel… however, what about small intricated graphics… what about multiples of the same graphic on a vehicle… what about multiples of the vehicle? after the first one you cut corners like a 50p peice… lines wave off and more…

unless asked we only laminate vehicles prints… all else is printed and coutour cut, so its neat when being collected.,

as has been said. if you already have a cutter, why have another + printer if it isnt required?

if i had the option again i recon ide go for same machine… or newer version of it… its super fast, print quality excellent and durability of prints is the excellent. ours is 54inch wide and works great for us on vinyl and banners…. but ide definately not go narrower than 48inch wide machine.
.

[John Childs]

quote Lorraine Clinch:

I now have another one to think about – the JV4.

Be wary Lorraine.

I admit that I know nothing about the JV4, and I did wonder why, when I had just bought the 3, the new model was the JV5.

General terms. I am often accused of being a cynical old sod, and probably rightly so, but don’t you think that if the JV4 was remotely suitable for our type of work, we would have heard all about it before now?

Specifically. My advice would be that, if you are only going to have one machine, then it needs to be as versatile as possible – and that means full solvent. Anything else and you are placing restrictions on yourself – either in the longevity of the prints you can produce or the materials upon which you can print.

You have my sympathy. So much to think about.

[Lorraine Clinch]

quote John Childs:

quote Lorraine Clinch:

I now have another one to think about – the JV4.

Be wary Lorraine.

I admit that I know nothing about the JV4, and I did wonder why, when I had just bought the 3, the new model was the JV5.

General terms. I am often accused of being a cynical old sod, and probably rightly so, but don’t you think that if the JV4 was remotely suitable for our type of work, we would have heard all about it before now?

Specifically. My advice would be that, if you are only going to have one machine, then it needs to be as versatile as possible – and that means full solvent. Anything else and you are placing restrictions on yourself – either in the longevity of the prints you can produce or the materials upon which you can print.

You have my sympathy. So much to think about.

You are absolutely right John, as I said earlier, I wondered why I hadn’t heard of it. Theres a lot of talk associated with the JV4 of ‘gliclee’, whatever that may be!
I just liked the idea of being able to print onto substrates up to 7mm – perfect for some (small) signs, like having a flat-bed without taking the space.

Yes, far too much to think about. 😮 🙁

[John & Dawn Roddick]

Lorraine

Don’t know how feasible it is in a geographical sense, but I would take up offers to view other members’ printers if possible. We have a Cadet arriving on Monday which we ordered after visitin Nik so that we couldto see one in operation from a users point of view, and not a salesman’s. Whatever machine you settle on, I think you need to see first hand what it can produce and get a balanced view from a user and not someone who is just interested in making a sale.
Good luck

Dawn

[Peter Normington]

I did the same, went to see a user using , I opted for a mimaki, nice chrissy present, hope santa can get it down the chimney?

Nik is a good sales person aint she,

Peter

[Jill Marie Welsh]

I now have a new dilemma, having seen the French Rugby calendar.
That’s like trying to pick a caramel or a turtle out of a box of good chocolates.
Love…Jill

[Jamie Wood]

I think JV4 is basically Mimaki’s answer to the Epson/HP/Canon type
of pigment/dye printers. Would need laminating for outdoor use, or
specially coated (and expensive) materials. Gliclee is another term
for inkjet, often used with regards to printing high res images for photographers and fine art.

You would probably be better off with some sort of solvent machine.
I use a JV3, which is brilliant, IMO.

Cheers,
Jamie.

[Andrew Boyle]

I’m still all for the JV3…………the quality is great and you can set it up and let it run during the night without worrying…although the dedicated plotter is a useful tool we don’t use it that often….with the new inks it’s a lot easier to keep clean..it also prints pantones and solids better than most 😀 😀

[Dave Bruce]

OK I am going to add to the JV3 crowd, been to see it and Cadet at other sign shops and the Mimaki came out top, next year is going to be so exciting.

Dave

[Colin Hibbitt]

no one has mentioned the new G2 grenidier for 18,999 print and cut – has anyone got one if so how great is it?

Colin

[David Rowland]

you know I was one of the first JV3 owners on this forum.. now look, loads.

On Rob’s comments I am not knocking the sticker thing, to be honest we do a fair bit but we would either sub it out or cut stickers that are rectangle based, it only takes about 10minutes to cut up a load of stickers into small rectangles, profile cutting to the edge of the sticker is not really needed and you really need to cut thru the material and not put a kiss-cut if your handing the stickers out.

BUT saying that… The mimaki comes with a cutter deal which can be something like £2.5K extra, GET IT as it does exactly what rob said unattended without any hassles, it has a cross sheet cutter and the usual crop mark registration and they you have a good excuse to sell your existing cutter.

Oh, if Graphityp wants to contact me about a cutter for that price… please do as I know you lot will know about the deal I am talking about.

[Chris Dowd]

quote Dave Rowland:

you know I was one of the first JV3 owners on this forum.. now look, loads.

Hey Dave, have I missed some congratulations whilst I’ve been away? didn’t realise you now owned the business, congratulations and best of luck mate.

Chris.

[David Rowland]

yes, ummm. thanks?

interesting comments on the HP above… I certainly know HP have come a long way in the solvent game and 64" for 10K, if I didn’t have a JV3 then I would be looking forward to seeing that one.

Good to look at printers now, but SignUK helps and all our decisions been based up there where you get to see the printers print on the most expensive and best looking materials they can get (all with perfect heads 😉 )

[Robert Lambie]

OK different angle…

why should i buy a JV3 over the Grenadeir?

what does/canthe JV3 do better that a grenadier cannot?

[Chris Dowd]

Chat with James Short on that one Dave, he’s the one who told me all about it when he was in this week.

[Chris Dowd]

quote Robert Lambie:

OK different angle…

why should i buy a JV3 over the Grenadeir?

what does/canthe JV3 do better that a grenadier cannot?

It’s not all about the printer Rob, the aftersales played a major factor in our purchase, and you know the stories of the very poor service we had from the Grenadier supplier which made us cancel our order after they failed to deliver etc. etc. etc.

[David Rowland]

my first post above sums it up for us… i would consider the new HP, Grenadier with 1625mm or JV5 today.

As an owner of two/three printers in the past, this is how I would shop:-
1: Engineers in this area (none lol)
2: Warranty
3: Print quality with RIP, inc profiles
4: Print width
5: Print Price vs ink usage
6: Volume usage
7: Take up/roll holding
8: Corel compatibilty
9: Print n cut or seperate cutter deal

I keep editing this… I not considered different medias, eco and all that…

No difference between Grenadeir or JV3 appart from media handling grippers, few speed differences but we didn’t worry about the speed of the JV3 now but did at first, but no longer have long banner printing contract. Back then I would have considered the Granadier as I did the JV3, but we already had a bit of history so we wanted to deal with another supplier.

[David Rowland]

LOL … Ok, James was a good guy…very helpful

[Dave Bruce]

I believe it can print to a greater range of materials, and the cutter can di cut. Seems to be more reliable within the industry, but this maybe down to the fact that there are more out there so more a greater chance of hearing about faults.

It is designed as a solvent printer, not converted, and as Peter mentioned in another post, a machine that does the job of two has to be a compromise, like a washer/dryer.

2 year warranty

Dave

[Jamie Wood]

I like to allow prints to gas out before contour cutting, to eliminate
curl on full bleed labels. This means removing the roll from the
machine. I can be printing another roll while waiting, whereas with
a print/cut machine, surely the prints can’t have gassed out if they
are being contour cut immediately after printing. I could be wrong
though…perhaps the Uniform ink hardens quicker than Mimaki.

Only takes 5 minutes to set up the plotter to contour cut, so while the
third roll is printing, I am contour cutting the second roll, and trimming
the first roll. Works well for me, but it really depends on personal
preference…they are all good machines.

Cheers,
Jamie.

[Lorraine Clinch]

Out of the many, many posts on this site there are often queries due to problems with printers, but it is outstandingly noticeable that there are far fewer problems posted regarding the JV3.
Whether this is because there are fewer owners (historically) of the JV3, I don’t know.

[Robert Lambie]

Jamie, good point, you do need out gassing time on "certain" stickers. normally these are stickers that the colour bleeds right off the edge. in in effect your cutting onto the ink.
the idea is that there is a little white border around the sticker which will stop any snagging of the blade, as the blade is not cutting into soft gummy vinyl due to the solvent.
i have to say though, i do not think we have ever had to do this… we have left the little white space and that’s that… just cuts right afterwards.
there is also the pause function that is very easily set on the grenadier.
it will print, pause for whatever time you set… 1 minute, 5, 1 hour, 1 day… then proceed to cut. obviously hours/days is an exaggeration but it will do it if asked.
again, we have never needed to use the pause facility, and bear in mind this pause thing was already on the machine as a Roland running the Eco-inks.

Chris, i do agree with you on that fact 100%. but i can honestly say in 2 years of having our machine i doubt Ive called support more than 5 times.
even then its been trivial matters. (that goes for nothing of course, everyone will have their own problems i guess.)

Lorraine, i tend to recon that what you said is probably more reality. if you have 20 people with one machine… 5 people with another and 5 people with another. then of course the group of 20 will have more posts/reports of problems. that said… most posts i see on the boards are not mechanical problems… they are normally down to someone not knowing why a noise has come from their machine, why a colour doesn’t come out the right shade, why a colour has stopped coming through and the like. problems that will happen on any of the machines regardless… its normally user inexperience. i don’t say that in a bad way because everyone has been then, "myself included and not that long ago" digital printing is big learning curve and i think will take us/you good couple of years to truly become competent with all aspects of our machine… by then, there will probably be a new one out, so we upgrade and away we go again :lol1:

[Colin Hibbitt]

robert
id be interested in this question
i think the grenadier would be better for us but my supplier thinks the jv3 would be a better for my business – or is he trying to shift his stock??

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote John & Dawn Roddick:

We have a Cadet arriving on Monday

hi dawn how did u get on today with your new toy 😀

nik

[Peter Normington]

quote Nicola Rowlands:

quote John & Dawn Roddick:

We have a Cadet arriving on Monday

hi dawn how did u get on today with your new toy 😀

nik

flippin heck Nik, at least give them time to unpack it!!

😉

Peter

[John & Dawn Roddick]

Nik

Cadet arrived this morning and we have been playing around with it all day. Thankfully I stop work on Thursday for 2 weeks so will have plenty of opportunity to get in about it. Service from Silverskies was first class.

Dawn

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote John & Dawn Roddick:

Service from Silverskies was first class.

good im glad to here it… 😀

well have fun….no doubt you both will, just try and tell john not to get the urge to sleep next to it 😉

nik

[Lee Ballard]

Been reading this thread with interest as we will be entering the print market soon and have been weighing up the options. I was already heading towards the JV3 + Plotter package and am still convinced that it’s the best option for what we need/do.

Lee

[Daniel Gillen]

The new mutoh valuejet range would be worth having a look into…
It uses the same head as the JV5. But a single head.. rather than 4.
A nice interweaving feature to reduce banding, JV5 is so quick.. id need to twice the amount of work to justify it. :lol1:

[Lynn Normington]

fantasy has become a reality !!!! taken delivery of mimaki jv3 quite remarkable I can even do it 🙄 guess what we will be doing over christmas 😀

Lynn

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Lynn:

fantasy has become a reality !!!! taken delivery of mimaki jv3 quite remarkable I can even do it 🙄 guess what we will be doing over christmas 😀

nice one lynn…ive been dying to find out how you two are getting on with your new wee baby!!! :lol1:

nik

[Lynn Normington]

Nik it’s fab but not wee!!! it’s quite big it’s a nice colour though sort of pink/purple

Lynn

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Lynn:

Nik it’s fab but not wee!!! it’s quite big it’s a nice colour though sort of pink/purple

:yikes: i do hope ur talking about the same thing i am lynn :lol1: :lol1: (a jv3) 😉

nik

[Lynn Normington]

sure am Nik just wish I’d have thought to get some canvas really fancy printing on to that, printed a normal picture last nite of suzie and ozzie at 760 res. it’s brilliant.

Lynn

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Lynn:

sure am Nik

U SURE? 😀 (me no thinks so 😉 )

nik