Employing?? where do you start??

[Matty Goodwin]

Hi Ben

Whereabouts are you based…

Matt

[Ian Johnston]

if you have any option DON’T.

if not ,
1] make sure you don’t know them, very important
2]If they tell you they know everything about signmaking, stay clear as they’ll know nothing of use.
3] start them on a trail basis
4] don’t try to be the " Mr Nice Boss", it doesn’t work. you’ll always be a B4stard in their eyes so you may as well earn that reputation early.
5} DON’T

there a lot more points i could write but that kind of language is used on here
I might sound hard but believe me i’ve been bitten a fair few times and know what to expect.

a small saying of mine is " Everyone should be an employer before they are an employee, then they’d understand"

below is an old link for an with very wise word from the late John Childs. it has a lot of good advice attached

http://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … =employees

[Matty Goodwin]

Ian sooo negative!!

John Childs was a very good friend of mine and, shock!, Horror! He employed staff!!

Anyone who has knowledge within the sign industry is an asset. You make it sound that Ben should take on a 12 yr old just out of cubs.

Big real world out here, join in when your ready!!

Matt

[Peter Normington]

Sorry Matty
got to agree with Ian.
and his logic comes through, probably that is why John did not employ you.
Have you ever employed people? It completely changes your view, once you have,

Peter

[Ian Johnston]

quote Matty Goodwin:

Ian sooo negative!!

John Childs was a very good friend of mine and, shock!, Horror! He employed staff!!

Anyone who has knowledge within the sign industry is an asset. You make it sound that Ben should take on a 12 yr old just out of cubs.

Big real world out here, join in when your ready!!

Matt

Matt big world and I’ve lived in it as long as you,
i’ve also been employing people for a long time, and know exactly how it works.
I know John had staff, i discussed the matter many a time with him, and as we both agreed , a greenhorn taught your way, is miles better than a know it all not willing to learn were they are going wrong.

The Boss is always a bast*rd, try and deny it if you can, but i guarantee you think or have thought it too, at some time in your life,
at which time that boss was probably banging his/her head against a wall trying to pay wages and bills etc.

Life’s a B**ch
Bosses are Bast*rds,
that’s the way it is.

you might think you’ve the best staff in the world, but i promise some day you’ll think i was right.

I once had a Lithuanian lad working for me, he learn’t me a lot, as he was leaving to return home he said this. " Ian, you can’t be a friend and be a boss". at which point i looked closer into my staffs actions, soon i realised it was time i changed, no truer word has anyone ever spoken to me.

:lol1:

[Nicola McIntosh]

have to agree with ian on all accounts….and my reasons are no doubt noted on the posted thread 😀

nik

[Matty Goodwin]

Peter

Your arrogance shows through again…NEVER once did I ask John for employment unlike yourself who wanted me to come on board in your ‘new’ wrapping venture.

Don’t use these boards to fuel your self righteousness. I make my opions and offer help, you condemn people.

[David Rogers]

Much like Ian…and lessons learnt the hard way.

Do NOT employ mates…you’ll have a choice…lose a mate AND an employee or live with the fact that they’ll be liable to extract the urine and want cut a lot of slack.

Do NOT be a mate to somebody you’ve just employed. Be a friendly, approachable boss – but don’t fraternise with the troops and be a ‘mate’…makes it hard to give them a bollocking later.

Doesn’t matter if you get somebody with some knowledge, no knowledge, or a specific skill…if you want to maintain YOUR quality they’ll all have to be trained and schooled as to how YOU want it done.

Hiring an existing signmaker has pros & cons…great that you don’t have to explain the basics – PITA if they want to use a different program. Can also generate tension if one or the other thinks that the design work needs some tinkering / quality isn’t up to scratch / taking too long.

Hiring a ‘newbie’ is great if you are NOT busy. If you have to teach them AND make the stuff…you’ll get less work done that if you did it yourself.

Seriously – start a non-conformance book for jobs that get seriously screwed up. There HAS to be consequences for losing time, materials & money. If you are blowing ££££ a week ‘fixing’ jobs or have to do them yourself before going home…something is amiss. Review it every month and see the progression at the end of the trial period…extend a trial period if needs be and plan a review 6 months hence once they are taken on full time.

Just my opinion.

[Jason Xuereb]

Our best tip is to agree to payment increases over a two year period before they are employed. Its amazing after a couple of months some employees tend to think they know everything and want a pay increase and become disillusioned when the pay increase isn’t received.

We set benchmarks that have to be met for that pay scale to increase. I know a lot of franchise firms employee this as well.

[Peter Normington]

Matty, I wasnt condeming anyone,
I was merely pointing out that you were a good friend of John’s and as such, perhaps he would have thought long hard about offering you employment, (if, in fact he had considered it) and for the reasons Ian and David R give.
From the little I know of you, I’m sure that you would be an asset to any sign company.
Sometimes the written word does not come across as it would if we were speaking face to face, if I came across the wrong way then I apologies.

Petr

[Denise Goodfellow]

I don`t normally join in debates on here, but heres my 2p worth.

I would have to agree with peter and co.

Today we have to appraise our new lad…… that came from a big franchise group with 3 years working there.

We have to say things like

you have body Oder.
you do not load the cutter properly.
nor the printer. which could lead to head damage
you do not listen to everything i ask of you.
you are on the phone to much
you sit back and watch me load the van…
you stand there watching the cutter cut, in stead of cutting then weeding it, and while you are weeding cut another item…

Our idea of hard work is a million times different than those who you pay a wage too.

some might sound petty to some of you, but its not to us.

we would not employ if necessary.
we would never employ a friend or relation.

we have a flat above the shop and this chap has asked about it….. no way LOL

[Ian Johnston]

looks like i do live in the real world Matt,
everyone that employs people agree 😀

I not saying that no-one should employ peolple , but the original question asked for pitfalls in employing and the simple answer from everyones replies is , don’t onto you really have to.

As John Childs said on the other tread, it’s as easy to employ 50 as 1.

[Mike Grant]

I have had a few employees over the last 20 years. My last one was made redundant 2.5 years ago after being in my employment for 12 years. I gave my employees all they ever asked for and more only to be stabbed in the back when I asked for them favours to be returned. The last stabbing went deep and the scars will never heal to the point that I have vowed to NEVER employ anyone again. (:) (hot)

[Glenn Sharp]

It’s a real shame reading this, that most of you have such strong views on the down side of employing someone…

It looks like there is a real need for assistance in the sign industry but most of you seem to have had your fingers burnt or are so wary of making the first step that it’s easier not too

It sounds to me like there is a requirement for a college course or something….just to teach the basics but with a view to creating some kind of talent pool from which to pick from

[John Hughes]

Hi. On a more positive note……………..

I employ 3 staff, one of which is my son.

Yes , there are moments when it can get tense for a number of reasons but hey that’s life – deal with it and move on.

As far as I’m concerned, I definitely feel it’s right for me but depends what you want or where you want your business go.

What ever you decide, it’s not set in stone for ever.

cheers
John

[Peter Normington]

Glen.
it is the way of the world, a small business will always have problems recruiting the calibre of staff they need, especially anyone with a bit of intelligence, and who wants to get on, it’s down to economics, most of the people you would like to employ, have already bought a plotter for 500quid, and are doing it for themselves!
The others who are serious, and want to be employed in signage, will aim for the larger companies who offer some sort of "security" and a regular income.
I have looked at a few people who I have employed on an ad hoc basis over the last few years, with a view to employing them full time, and without exception, all have taken advantage of my terms, for instance, job finishes early, they are quite happy to take a days pay for 6 hours, but if the job over runs by an hour, then is a different story….

Staff are an expensive capital outlay, research the best, and choose carefully is all I can say

Peter

[Glenn Sharp]

Peter,

Yeah, I can totally see it from an employers point of view…it is obviously a nightmare

It just seems a real shame that there is a need for help, a need to create more jobs but there are so many things stacked against you as a potential employer so it doesn’t happen

would a qualification in the basics help do you think?

[jay ritchie]

no real advice i have 1 saturday boy takes liberties all day long wont last much longer
and 1 guy started with me now will probly be opening against us

seriously how can u employ some one , new user or old hand or in between either way they will get trained your way and then bugger off do somet else or start against you ,like some one says with a cheapo cutter and before you slag cheap ,it works ,does the job and gets them started so they are a threat . trained or old hand can leave at any point with wages and start there selfs or go to the competition

u may fall out with your relatives occassionally and im sure they would stab u in back and start there selfs against you when they see what it can earn but really it has to be a better option than strangers .and lets face it who would really worry if u fell out with some of your relatives perminently no more aqward xmas dinners or parties ect bonus.

but you no what i mean if u cant do it ur self make sure its the wife or kids, who cant disappear or take liberties because it affects them or offer some partnership benefits ect so its in there interest to do rite.

[Peter Normington]

Glen
it may at least show a person has some commitment to enter the industry.
but what would you class as a basic qualification?
A few years ago I got invited to do some job experience courses from the local schools,
most of the kids just saw it as a day off from studies, The ones that are going to get on will either go on to further education, or naturally choose their own course (not in academia but life).
Hard to find good staff though. fact

Peter

[OwenTaylor]

I’m still only in my 20’s and probably a bit naive but surely there must be a place in this industry for employees?

Not everyone wants to be their own boss do they? In fact sometimes I wish I was an employee – in the 3 years I have been on my own I haven’t switched off for a day – and its bloomin’ stressful! Even when on holiday I think about the emails building up, the work when I get back, rent and bills to pay etc.

Wouldn’t it be nice to turn up, work hard for 8 hours, then go home and relax…

[Mike Grant]

quote OwenTaylor:

Wouldn’t it be nice to turn up, work hard for 8 hours, then go home and relax…

:rofl:

Maybe in the real world mate!

[Lynn Normington]

Owen that sounds like bliss 😀

Lynn

[Peter Normington]

quote OwenTaylor:

I’m still only in my 20’s and probably a bit naive but surely there must be a place in this industry for employees?

Not everyone wants to be their own boss do they? In fact sometimes I wish I was an employee – in the 3 years I have been on my own I haven’t switched off for a day – and its bloomin’ stressful! Even when on holiday I think about the emails building up, the work when I get back, rent and bills to pay etc.

Wouldn’t it be nice to turn up, work hard for 8 hours, then go home and relax…

Owen
yes, of course there is a place for employees.
they are a profit base, and should earn their keep, they are paid an amount to reflect their quality, and ease of use, like other product you buy,

Just make sure that they maintain at least the standards that you first employed them on.

Peter

[OwenTaylor]

quote Mike Grant:

quote OwenTaylor:

Wouldn’t it be nice to turn up, work hard for 8 hours, then go home and relax…

:rofl:

Maybe in the real world mate!

Well the real world for me is turning up, working hard for 10 hours, going home, then working some more…

[Mike Grant]

I had one bloke work for me, long story short….every job he had to do he had to take someone else with him without fail to help him. This particular day I asked him to go and fix 2No. 1000 x 1000mm dibond signs above an area of waste bins. He asked a lad to come with him but I overheard him and stopped him in his tracks and told him to fix it by himself. With this he gave me a mouthful and said he needed the help, so walked out on me there and then. I did not hear from him for a few days until he came and DEMANDED his holiday pay. Now please note that any pay due to him was never an issue but this moron made an issue out of it by going to the Citizens Advice people who then THREATENED ME WITH ALL SORTS FOR WITHHOLDING HIS WAGES!
Now to cut a long story short as he hadn’t given me a written notice I wrote to him and said (I can’t remember the exact words) that as he had walked out on me and not informed me in writing that I was to assume that his employment was terminated from the date on the letter.
At a later date I was speaking to someone who was clued up on employment law and he told me that this guy, even though HE walked out on ME that he could have taken ME to a tribunal and I would have ended up in the mire.
What am I leading up to….simply that no matter what, the EMPLOYEE has more rights than you the employer, and if you the employer don’t follow the rules of dismissal correctly to the book the you the employer will get shafted!

Rant over! :angry:

[Gert du Preez]

I currently employ 10 staff.

The advise I can give:

a) Want monkeys, pay peanuts. I struggled with this simple equasion. Until the light came on: Any employee should be worth more than he is paid. ( except in civil service….) thus, the more you pay, the more you earn. Really. (And, in the end, the less YOU have to work. Great to go camping for 5 days and come back finding your business sailing smoothly !!)

b) If you only employ 1 or 2 guys, get ones with experience and knowledge. Only take on "green" staff when you have a foundation of experienced staff to form the backbone of your enterprise. Also, more experience from other staff means Mr Greenhorn will be fast tracked on his training. Many small employers make the mistake of getting "the son of the greengrocer" because he works minimum wage. You can not afford that employee. Pay more, get more!

c) Be prepared to fire someone. If they dont shape, or do not live up to expectations as reflected in his/her Cirriculum Vitae, get rid of the sod.

d) Be fair, but firm. Eployees can and will take liberties if they smell the first sign of weakness from you. Treat them like YOU would expect to be treated if the roles were reversed.

e) Reward good work. Annual Bonus, Day off, Little extra end of the month, Lunch and a few beers when he should be working (my favourite!!), or even just a casual verbal compliment in the presence of other employees, clients etc. – All of these things goes a long way to ensuring your employee stays happy and feels part of the system.

f) Make sure to comply to ALL legal requirements: Workmans Compensation payments, Social Security, Tax (Pay As You Earn) etc etc. Oh, and check things like the guys Nationality and Status. Dont want to be employing some Zimbabwean economic refugee with papers he bought off a Pakistani bloke in Chinatown!!

g) Make sure you can do anything you require your employee is required to do. ( this is particular advise for an Signmaker small business) That is the only way you can realistically have a yeardstick to measure the performance of the employee. I often reprimand staff WHILE SHOWING THEM that a particular job can be done in 15 minutes, not 30 like they just spent on it…

Simple fact is, there is a limit to what you can do on your own. Take on 1 employee, and theoretically your capacity should double. A second employee will increase capacity by a further 50 %. etc. etc. That is why it is much more difficult employing your first employee vs. getting subsequent employees. (All about relativity) But also be prepared to take a knock in the early days before you settle on your higher production volumes.

Good luck. Hope you add an asset to your business!

[TonyMoore]

I have employed several staff and all to date have had there pros and cons.
I do not like to be negative, but unfortunately unlike graphic design, or architects or doctors, there does not seem to be any recognised route to signmaking run by a college.
The result of this is a lot of drifters and od jobbers come into the trade, some are excellent, but plenty are time wasters who start of good but quickly get itchy feet or want more money without putting in the input.
My advice is think about salary.
If you are prepared to pay a junior £12,000, then he needs to generate you an increase turnover of £36,000. If you are constantly having to help him or put right his mistakes, you may actually end up losing more than you make.
1. Dont employ a friend
2. Dont become friends
3. Set a clear contract explaining what is required.
4. Set dates for sallary reviews
5. Get references from schools or past bosses
6. Dont take any crap

Wish i could be more positive, but after 7 years i am still looking for a quality employee that i can rely upon.

[Gavin MacMillan]

Well said Gert, all good points.

If you can’t get all the work out yourself you either turn it away of employ people simple. Feeling a certain ownership of the business is what to get across when it’s only a few staff, make sure they know they will get there share of the rewards as long as they take the responsibility.

Of course there can be downsides but the other option is drastically limiting the amount of work your company can produce so you have to figure out what way you want to go.

I would repeat a point that has been mentioned though, TRIAL PERIOD! Doesn’t matter what skills people have for some reason the basics of signmaking seem beyond some very smart people I’ve met, give them 3 months to show an aptitude and to make sure your happy with overall performance and attitude and take it from there… Good luck!

[Gert du Preez]

When I started out about 20 months ago, I employed my wife as receptionist…..

I had the unhappy experience of relieving her of her services two months later. (dont ask….)

That one I forgot. DONT EMPLOY FAMILY. My firing my wife caused quite a bit of domestic squabbles, but at least I saved myself YEARS of problems by NOT having her here!

Business is business. If I run short of cash, I BORROW from my business, and subtract it end of month from the fixed salary I pay myself…

I actually give my employees more leeway RE repayment of THEIR staff loans than I give myself!

[Peter Normington]

quote Gert du Preez:

When I started out about 20 months ago, I employed my wife as receptionist…..

I had the unhappy experience of relieving her of her services two months later. (dont ask….)

That one I forgot. DONT EMPLOY FAMILY. My firing my wife caused quite a bit of domestic squabbles, but at least I saved myself YEARS of problems by NOT having her here!

Business is business. If I run short of cash, I BORROW from my business, and subtract it end of month from the fixed salary I pay myself…

I actually give my employees more leeway RE repayment of THEIR staff loans than I give myself!

Hats off Gert, 20 months and ten staff is good going!

Peter

[Gert du Preez]

Peter,

Just 3 words: Uranium Mining Boom!!

My timing, by accident or design, was perfect.

I enjoy every second of it!

[Peter Normington]

good luck Gert, make the most of it.
being in the right place at the right time, is not always luck, it is seeing an opportunity and making the most of it, which you appear to have done…

Peter