do you need illuminating signs checked by electricians?

[Robert Lambie]

we supply and fit, drill hole through into shop etc then attach a plug and show the shop owner the sign working. then leave, but advising them to get a proper spark to make the final connections as we are not approved to do this. have been doing this since day dot…

its not worth the hassle and lets me sleep 😀

[Steve Farrugia]

I don’t think its thats simple and we may be open to prosecution.

If you assemble the electrics and wire it up or even fit a plug it must be tested.

Even if you bought it in and your supplier tested it you need certification and I bet ( coz i checked with a major supplier) who told me the stickers they put on everything only mean it lights up not that it meets regulation or that it has had tests.

I spoke to another big supplier and was told the same thing – they do not do any tests that will provide proof that it is safe. I found out that the guy there wring up signs for the whole industry had never sat or studied iee regs and that I had more certificates than him even though I have wired up less signs and electrics!

I hope I’m wrong but i think if we check the regs we may need to do a lot more to ensure we are covered.

I think that it all depends on the term competant person and even fitting a plug with a lead to a pre wired unit might mean it needs testing.

[Simon Clayton]

But what testing can be done… plug it in, switch on, touch the case, no electric shock…safe
Its a bit like a car MOT, as soon as you leave the garage, you could rip the tyre on the kerb, it would now fail a new MOT..

Simon

[Fred Caffrey]

Ideally a qualified electrician should connect the cable to an illuminated sign, either in the workshop or on site. On site is an obvious problem if the spark isn’t there when the sign is fitted or comes along later and trys to take a sign apart to connect it up. Choosing the right cable how it enters the sign, does it need clipped to a wall if the sign is any distance away, even the hole in the wall should be properly sealed. Using twin and earth cable for instance can come loose in the connector block due to movement of the cable as the conductors are round and can slide down the side of the screw. I mention this because it’s a simple thing that could start a fire if there is a loose connection and might not be obvious for a while. A qualified spark should cover all of this and take away any worries. Testing wise making sure the connections are secure earthing is done right, proper cable etc are obvious things, the components should be Kite marked or BS standard. After all that any certification required can only come from a qualified person conversant with regs. To summarise I would say fit the sign with no cable attached and leave it to the spark. I’m a qualified electrician although I’ve been making signs for 20 years. Hope this helps.
Cheers
Fred

[Simon Clayton]

See, to me that’s all pretty standard stuff, In my time doing signs, I’ve seen some horrendous stuff done by qualified electricians.
No rubber gromits on bear metal holes, so the cable has worn through and blown a big hole in the sign, no earthing straps on neon, we used to have earth cables run seperate to each tranny and letter if using silicon cable,
I’ve been near neon hallo letters and can feel my skin tingle coz the letter is live.

i can’t see any difference between drilling a hole through a wall and putting a plug on it yourself or paying £70 or more for an electrician do it, It’s all a load of tosh imho..

Simon

[Fred Caffrey]

I couldn’t agree more Simon, I’ve seen some dangerous stuff as well, at the end of the day if the place burns down and it’s due to the person that put in cabling and connected up it’s £70 well spent. If the sign needs connected to a supply or a circuit run for it the buyer would be expected to be paying for that side of it. Regs are getting tougher nowadays to try and eliminate the cowboys so somebody with no experience could get caught out. Then there’s the insurance aspect to it all but that’s something for another time.

Cheers
Fred

[Simon Clayton]

Good point Fred…. £70 well spent if it did burn down..lol

Simon

[Steve Farrugia]

Fatman is spot on but 90% of our work is direct to customers and I think we will have to arrange wiring in.

Thats going to hurt on a £320 projecting sign.

Further more though Fatman when your “qualified electrician” wires it in to the adjacent supply does he test to see how much load that is already carrying?

It has been common practise for years to “just add it to it as its only a few flou tubes” (yeah right!!)

Someone told me its a £5k fine to wire it in if you are not a qualified electrician.

And if you do get one to do it what about a test certificate?

Simon your bit about tingling neon letters is exactly why its not a load of tosh.

[Fred Caffrey]

Signwriter, The load of the sign should be the first thing to determine and you’re right, a few flou tubes doesn’t sound much. I stay away from offering a circuit as well if doing an illuminated sign, you just need to look above a ceiling in a typical shop to see the wire nightmare usually. A spark should be able to figure out the load of a circuit easily enough but can take a bit of detective work as you never know whats connect to a circuit until you switch it off normally. A sign would probably need a timer attached which might mean a circuit of it’s own if the load is higher. The length of the cable run can be a factor as well for cable size. Test certificates are usually associated with fixed wiring in buildings probably new wiring as well and I don’t know if this would apply to making up a sign box with a wire and plug sticking out the side. As I’ve said I’ve been away from it for a while I’ll try and get some more information from some sparks I know who are up to date. You can do a search on Google for IEE regulations there may be some information there. I’ll keep you posted if I come up with anything.
Cheers
Fred

[Simon Clayton]

Signwriter, That was a qualified electrician doing it, but he obviously didn’t have a clue about neon…

What I’m saying is: The sign is tested & kite marked from the factory, running a cable from a terminal block in the sign through a wall and putting a plug on it ain’t brain surgery, the sign will have no greater load than a fridge, like in a shop all the ice cream fridges, drinks cooler etc running off the 13amp curcuit, so why should you have to have an electrician do it? its utter rubbish, the 13amp fuse in the plug should blow, or trip the fuse in the main box before anything can become too out of hand, and as Fred has said have you ever looked in the false ceiling… like a ball of knotted string most times..

This was only brought in because the MPs husband or something was killed doing DIY electrics at home.. from what i can remember

Simon

[Fred Caffrey]

Signwriter, I think what you’re referring to is something called Part P. As Simon says it’s new rules for people doing major electrical work in dwellings in England and Wales. Information on the requirements for Part P can be found on IEE sites.

Cheers
Fred

[David Rowland]

all very interesting, but can someone sum up the standards that need to be met and if there is an annual fee (ie Fensa for windows, Corgi for gas)

Is there any websites or courses reconmended?

I am a tech but would like to try a get some qualifications and being in the sign industry and have an electrical mind it would be interesting

Dave

[Steve Farrugia]

I got the impression that although the regs specifically state dewllings commercial premises came under the same regs.

Lets face it I bet there are more lash ups on commercial premises than you find on the domestic.

How many times have you opened up a box or ceiling and seen the mess of wires and bare ends greeting you.

Simon C

You are right most of time connecting up is not a problem but if you work out the load of a 10mtr x 1.3 mtr illuminated box you will see that adding it to a cable already carrying a fridge or two a till and window lights you are going to have problems.

Its going to cost more than £70 to wire back a separate feed to the board.

What gets me is that all those kite marks and BS lables don’t mean a thing if it was not made or assembled correctly and paying a spark to connect it for you will not absolve you from blame.

It would be nice to supply it with a plug and leave it for the site to connect but you can’t always do that.

Trouble is so much of our stuff is custom made and even fascia boxes do not come with a cable hole let alone a power cable or point to plug into. Maybe they should???????

[Simon Clayton]

“What gets me is that all those kite marks and BS labels don’t mean a thing if it was not made or assembled correctly and paying a spark to connect it for you will not absolve you from blame”.

Good point Signwiter, as i doubt if they would check the whole sign, I’m lucky as i use a subcontract fitter, who has all the sparks qualifications needed.

I generally get the client to put in a feed to where the sign is going, then its a simple case of connecting the box, hope fully there should be no problems,
Another point is where does liability stop, if i were to supply and fit a sign that just has a plug on the end, the client plugs it into a 13amp socket that’s overloaded (4-5 plugs all in the same outlet type thing) whose to blame if his shop burns down?? What they should have done was state that all public places need to have their wiring check and renewed if necessary.. What a mine field this could be..

Simon

[Martin Pearson]

Simon, your not going to win, if you just supplied a sign with a plug on the end it would then be classed as a portable appliance and would need to be PAT tested so you still haven’t got round the regulations.
Thing is these regulations are quite often written with the best intentions in the world but not enough thought IMHO. You are right, there are a lot of people who are more than capable of carrying out the work safely and there are a lot of people with the relevant certificates that will make a complete bodge of it.
As for installing neon, you need a seperate certificate to install neon so the avenage electrician wouldn’t be qualified anyway.

[Guy Burt-Davies]

This has been an interesting thread to read, installation can be the weak link in any contract and bad/untrained/unqualified fitters can spell disaster. The electrical connection issue is a tough one, any permanent connection to the ring main should be installed and certified by an electrician qualified to IEE 16th edition. Simply fitting a plug is no good either – it then becomes a ‘portable appliance’ and needs to be PAT tested (let’s see someone trying to prove a sign is portable!).

The thread has also raised an interesting point – how ‘legal’ are the signs bought in from 3rd party suppliers (Northern Signcases, Insight, Universal etc etc)? Illuminated signs should be installed to comply with BS EN 50107 – but here’s one of the problems..

Within EN 50107, the onus is on the installer to ensure that the sign, including all components of the sign, comply with the requirements. Where performance requirements of components are specified, and where it is not practicable for the installer to test the component to those requirements, a suitable release certificate should be available from the supplier, indicating compliance. For components which are purchased regularly (transformers, protective devices, etc.), the certificate will normally be held by the Q A Department of the company employing the installer.

So, if I read that right we should all be asking for a release certificate from whoever supplies the sign boxes – assuming they’re supplied with the lamps & gear fitted – if you’re fitting the gear trays etc yourself you’d better be qualified!

The issue of electricians making the final connection is another good point, I wouldn’t hesitate to get one in to fit a new light or power socket in my house but install a sign? It’s a very different skill to the one they have – the neon ‘tingle’ issue proves that – although Martins comment about needing a different qualification isn’t quite right, as long as they are qualified to the IEE standard and install to BS EN 50107 they can work with neon – they may not understand it but they can install it.

We’re NICEIC accredited and certified to make the final connection legally, but there are a lot of ‘big’ firms who aren’t yet their fitters make the final connection each and every day – wonder how much time they’ve spent worrying about possible problems?

[Fred Caffrey]

I agree Neon Wizard, any company making and selling the likes of made up sign boxes with electrical components should be more responsible as regards at least a notice on the box stating it has been tested and complies with the relevant standard. Once you start adding to it then it moves into having some idea of regs etc. To go back to the original question, as far as I am concerned the regs haven’t changed regarding fitting signs etc. the new rules / laws? that came into force in Jan 05 with the £5000 fine relate to Part P for wiring in houses / dwellings, I’ll be happy for someone to prove me wrong. Fitting signs should comply with Building regs and the electrical side is part of that.

Dave, I don’t know of any courses relating to electrics and signs, I would contact your local technical college, they may do different levels for the likes of IEE regs etc.

Cheers
Fred

[Steve Farrugia]

Neon Wizard

That is exactly the point I was making.

The only way is to train or have someone trained to NICEIC standard to fit your signs.

Either that or don’t sell illuminated signs! – Unless fatman is right about it only being domestic (which I doubt)

This whole thing came up about 15 years ago when I used to manage 30 fitting crews. Out of that lot I would say that only three were qualified/competant to carry out tests although they had worked for 10-15 years in the sign industry. Again the problem will come down to wages as i doubt that a qualified electrician will want to be a sign fitter when he can earn twice as much working on domestic installations. The big firms will not like putting and paying for fitters to go on courses for them to then leave to become electricians. The problem is for small firms to find a qualified person that can connect the signs but do the other non electrical jobs a fitter does!!

Oh what fun!!

[Lee Ballard]

Part P applies to domestic homes, see official documentation here:

You’ll also find an interesting read in the Screwfix forums, in the electrical section, mainly sparks on there but some good info to be had, such as never have a well know, nationwide three-letter kitchen and bedroom shop fit your kitchen unless you fancy the risk. Apparently one of the senior bod’s at this particular co’s HQ said to a concerned sparky………what’s part P then?????

Lee

[David Rowland]

hi, i have just reading up on this, i have a couple of documents coming to me on guidance on IEE 16th which is the regulation side of things for domestic (and maybe commerical), but from what I have read the BS numbers are the “guide”, trying to get everyone to work the same way etc. they are not actually a legal requirement but it would be in the interests of the company to work “to the standard” to fit in

[David Rowland]

I got the books, they were only a cheap revision guide to IEE 16th edition… well, I have electrical knowledge but I am finding the books quite heavy reading so far, but we will see.

[Adrian Hewson]

I will not bet my daughters life on it, but my understanding of IEE regulations and certification is connection to the mains fuse box, this must be done by a qualified electrician. IF this is done then the circuit is safeguarded by the fuse box. Anyone can then make a connection to spur from one of these circuits. We are this week doing the front sign installation to a 1 milion pound refit (customers figueres not mine) of a big niteclub. WE had to supply all our H&S and insurance etc etc etc and we were checked out thoroughly. The Electrical contractor has left us coiled FP200 (fire proof cable for the floods) and a flat grey 13 amp cable for connection to the transformers. IEE says the last electrician on a job is responsible for the safety of a site 😕

[David Rowland]

interesting… currently reading up on safety and also how to wire into a substation.

[Peter Thompson]

This is an interesting thread for me, firstly the new regs that came into effect from Jan onwards only apply to domestic installations, i’ve been carrying out electrical test & inspections for over 11years now, so far this year i’ve carried out less than 20 Part P test’s, This is still a very grey area, for example a pub is classed as a commercial property fair enough but if that pub has a staff flat then that is also classed as commercial even though it is a domestic flat! How far does this go? if a shop in a parade has a flat above it and they are owned by different people is that flat domestic or commercial? I’ve had to refer that question to the niceic on more than occasion and they just hold their hands up, Also Part p only requires a test if you modify the circuit Ie: extend a ring main, add a radial circuit or add additional lights etc, the majority of commercial propertys which we fit signs too on a daily basis will come under The 16th edition regs, if you install a sign and hardwire it (ie: not on a plug top) then ideally you should get a minor works cert issued to cover you for the work on that circuit, you can use niceic or eca forms if you are registered with them or you can use British Standard forms if not ( a spark not registered with the eca or niceic can quite legally carry these tests for you and issue you a BS minor works cert (or their own minor works certificates as long as they are based on the forms issued by the IEE regs) The Niceic & eca are just like a glorified trade union, and they are ruining the electrical industry, (a spark working on a building site has to have certificates for everything including using a drill, ladders etc, this all costs money and a lot of sparks i know have left the industry due to constantly paying out for all these courses and certs) To complete a Minor works cert you would need to carry out the following 3 tests’s to make sure the circuit is safe (the plug it in and hope it don’t go bang test is not a proper test! 🙂 an R1 & R2 continuity test, insulation resistance and earth loop impeadance test, and the regs state that these test can be carried out by a competent person! also just a quick bit of info, a portable appliance is anything that is portable and not fixed with or without a plug top fitted under 18kg in weight! the item doesn’t have to have a plug on it, Washing machines etc hard wired into a fused spur or double pole switch can be tested, if requested, one thing i would advise though is that you always put a voltage label somewhere on any illuminated signs, Ie: “Danger 230v”, “Danger 230v Isolate Elsewere”, “Danger 230v Fed From a timed supply!”…. etc, the normal yellow background with black writing as detailed in the 16th edition regs, 240v is now obsolete its 230v and 440v / 415v is now 400v, hope this info is of use to someone one day

Big Pete