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Costs of decommissioning vehicles & removing Livery !
Hi Everyone,
Typical scenario, I have a client with half a dozen vans that need to be re branded. Existing livery is basically a partial wrap with standard cut vinyl, which needs to be removed. Like most people I absolutely hate removing vehicle graphics so am considering charging 1.5x or even 2x my standard labour rate for removal of the old livery.
Just wondered what fellow industry people thought of this, do you charge a higher rate for decommissioning, or do you just charge a standard rate and grit your teeth ! -
55 Replies
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That’s an easy one.
1. Charge your normal hourly rate.
2. Draft in a couple of Eastern Europeans to do the work.
3. Make tea.
4. Make yourself comfortable, look out the window and watch them work. -
Not a bad idea John, only problem being I wouldn’t be able to sit still while worrying about them burning and scraping the paint off vehicles that are only a couple of months old.
🙄 -
Just removed the graphics from a small van ,front and both sides for £60.00 + vat. Hours work at most.
Peter
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quote Dave Harrison:Not a bad idea John, only problem being I wouldn’t be able to sit still while worrying about them burning and scraping the paint off vehicles that are only a couple of months old.
🙄You might be surprised at their abilities Dave. They are very easy to underestimate but I find it helps to realise that they are not coming from an African village, they have actually seen motor vehicles before, and probably even worked on them. And, because they are prepared to make the effort and commitment to try and make a better life for themselves in a different country, they are also amongst the most motivated of their countryman.
The language barrier can be a problem and if you just explain what you want, they will nod their heads and you think they’ve understood. My experience is that if you demonstrate and show them how to do a job properly then they are very good.
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I would charge a well covered estimate of the time it will take. Would you expect a joiner/mechanic/plumber to charge extra for a job they don’t like. Lets face it we don’t get many bad jobs and if stripping vinyl is as bad as it gets how can you complain? It’s all part of the job, do it to the best of your ability and charge accordingly, not liking it is no excuse for over charging in my opinion.
G
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Ok then. . So far the consensus is to charge your standard hourly rate.
Gavin I see the point you are trying to make, however if a quote is accepted then surely the other party is happy with the price and its not over charging ?Lets put this another way. .
You get asked to quote for a job you really do not want to do. .
Do you
A) Refuse to quote, suggesting they go somewhere else !
B) Tell them you can’t do anything for weeks because you’re snowed under hoping they’ll go somewhere else !
C) Quote higher than normal, making sure if you get this horrible job it’ll be worth you’re while !
D) Quote normal, hire in some cheap labour to do the work while you get on with something else ! -
quote Gavin MacMillan:Would you expect a joiner/mechanic/plumber to charge extra for a job they don’t like.
:yes1: They do it all the time.
However, I do agree that it is all part of the job but………
We all like to think that we are good at our jobs and deserve to earn appropriate money. The fact is that if we spend our time stripping then we are doing a minimum wage job, and should be remunerated accordingly. I don’t think any of us would like to work for minimum wage.
Different skill levels for different jobs Gavin. I don’t know your charge out rate, but wouldn’t you be better off employing the abovementioned Eastern Eupropeans for unskilled work, leaving you free to concentrate on something which will earn higher pay rates?
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John, sorry I don’t really understand your last post.
Yes I understand that you have people with different skill levels and as an employer you wouldn’t pay a designer the same money you would pay the tea boy but I don’t have any staff and work by myself.
I have one labor rate for whatever work I am doing be that designing or removing vinyl so I would be earning the same money whatever I was doing.
As for the question asked I would just charge my usual rate for what ever job it was, I accept that I really enjoy my work but at times I will get asked to do things that maybe I don’t really want to. That to me is just part of life.
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Personally I go with either option B or C.
It’s your business do what you feel comfortable with and what feel right 😕
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Hi Martin. Sorry if I confused you.
I understand what you say about having no employees, but that isn’t really the issue because it applies to employees and the self employed alike. I also understand that you have one charge-out rate whatever work you are doing. In the latter I suspect that you are the same as the majority of people on this board, but I think you are all wrong. 🙂
I have no idea what the UKSB collective average labour rate is but, for the sake of argument, let’s agree that it is £25.00 per hour. Now, some of the work I do is worth a lot more than that and I would be silly to charge less. On the other hand, like Wednesday, I spent the afternoon shunting vans around and that’s a minimum wage job and there is no way what I was doing was worth £25 per hour.
I concede that my average rate over the week may work out to £25 but if I charge that for administering a corporate image change on a two hundred van fleet then | am selling myself, and indirectly my family, short and giving the customer the bargain of the week that he could only dream of getting elsewhere. Conversely, if I try to charge any more than £15 per hour for moving vehicles then I’m not going to get any of that type of work.
Of course, in an ideal world, we would all just do the good paying stuff but, in practice, most of the work we do is a mixture of tasks requiring different skill levels and attracting different rates of pay.
How many of the hotshot designers on here think they are worth £35 per hour? Is their time still worth that whilst they are emptying the bins and making the tea? I think not.
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I agree with JC
you have to look at your weekly work load as a supermarket shopping basket.Let me explain, when we go to the supermarket, we all buy basic cheap stuff, tins of soup, bags of flour, that sort of thing, we also buy more expensive stuff, joint of meat, pre-cooked sandwich stuff etc.
But… at the check out its the total that counts,
we wouldnt expect the supermarket to charge £10 for every item, would we, but if the only sold the expensive sirloin, we wouldn’t shop there, would we?Peter
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Rather than Eastern Europeans try to find some local people who are glad of the work.
Its easier to let them know what you need, and they dont post the cash straight out of our economy.
I never find it difficult to get help. -
i usually charge my hourly rate (or day rate if applicable), +25% to cover solvent cleaners / paper towel / electric, etc,
some customers do it themselves when you tell them it could cost em a days labour if it’s stubborn vinyl, they always do a good job too, because i tell them it must be spotless, or i’ll charge what time i spend cleaning off glue residue at the same price. they always come back and say they wish they’d just paid me to do it!
i try to price myself out of it to be honest, and refuse to remove it, particularly reflective, unless they sign a waiver, covering me against damage should the paint lift with the film, or the paint be marked as a result of having to use more risky methods to remove it, ie, razor blade. obviously if i gauge a chunk out, i fix it, but sometimes i have to resort to the blade, especially 20yr old factory applied graphics!
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Interesting arguments here.
I actually charge much more than my standard rate. Its a mongrel job, and if they want to save money, they can do it themselves.
I give them those two choices actually. Do it themselves or, because its a job that can involve unseen problems, I quote a higher rate to cover damage.
If a plumber comes out to dig a trench, he’ll charge one price, but if he comes out to dig a trench that is full of tree roots or sewer waste, he’ll charge higher. why? because of the increased level of difficulty.
Frankly, if I’m going to do a job that I don’t like, the client is going to pay.
I can earn a better hourly rate designing and fitting, multitasking if you like, than being stuck ripping off signage of unknown quality, just so the client can enjoy a game of golf, while I do a job that his kids could do for pocket money.
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totally agree Shane I hate taking vinyl off and always try to encourage customers to do it their selves, if they can’t be convinced to do that, it’s costs more than to apply. I think they think we have a magic wand wave it over the van and say abracadabra and clean van appears!!!!!!…. I wish
Lynn
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Try a reciprocating saw with a HSS blade in it.
Then just replace the panels with Dibond of the same or similar colour.
Definetely the quickest way to remove stubborn vinyl. -
John, I can understand what you are saying and to be honest it is something I have never really thought to much about. I worked my labor rate out based on all the criteria that I needed to and if I had a job to do which required the use of a labor rate then thats what I charged no matter what that job was.
I think it also comes down to what stage your business is at and just how busy you are if I were busy all the time with work that I enjoyed doing or could earn me a better profit margin then I would probably have to review the way I worked and how I charged for certain types of work.
I am without doubt guilty of under pricing my work so there is a lot of truth in what you say, a lot of customers have got a bargin price from me and the only one that has suffered at all is me!!! -
Well I would quite happily strip vinyl 8 hours a day for 25 quid an hour, thats a grand a week.
thats 52 grand a year.
A little above the national average wouldn’t you say?
Next time you get a fleet give me a shout Ill do it.
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quote Steve Underhill:Rather than Eastern Europeans try to find some local people who are glad of the work.
Can’t find any Steve.
I have to import them from Poland. Or Devon. 😀
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Ha ha, yes the old Janner import,
Hope you have the bullwhip out. -
quote Steve Underhill:Well I would quite happily strip vinyl 8 hours a day for 25 quid an hour,
:lol1:Thats equivilent to $75 per hour in aussie dollars, I’d do it for that price too, but that sort of money is what dreams are made of
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Its what we charge an hour fixing computers in the other shop, callouts are £40 including the first hour, then £25 per hour after.
The thing is its not a constant stream of 8 hours a day in that game shame though -
quote Steve Underhill:Its what we charge an hour fixing computers in the other shop, callouts are £40 including the first hour, then £25 per hour after.
The thing is its not a constant stream of 8 hours a day in that game shame thoughalways base your costs on 8 hours per day Steve, because if you are paying labour they expect to be paid(and quite rightly) for the hours they are at your disposal,
£25 per hour is actually quite low for charged out labour, if you take into account all the costs, to employ someone,
Around here £50 an hour is what our car wash charge out at per man,Peter
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Theres only Tim works at the shop, and we are in a small town so have to keep prices and people keen, so the £25 per hour is one man,
Thats actually a very very good wage for down here.
I however always work on price work in the sign game not hourly unless theres lots of preparing etc.
I might add also that me or Tim dont get paid at the minute, we are both directors, I run one shop he runs the other until the lease is up, the business gets paid instead of us, all the cash goes on stock or tools.
my basic bills come out of the PC repairs and any cash left over but mostly we just build the business with it. -
quote Steve Underhill:Theres only Tim works at the shop, and we are in a small town so have to keep prices and people keen, so the £25 per hour is one man.
Thats actually a very very good wage for down here.
I however always work on price work not hourly unless theres lots of preparing etc.Steve £25 per hour is a good wage, its a grand a week, but i would assume that you dont pay Tim £25 per hour, I was talking about the retail hourly rate
If tim is charged out at £25 its still low unless all his time is recouping that rate, incuding paying his NIC and stat hols etcPeter
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quote :If a plumber comes out to dig a trench, he’ll charge one price, but if he comes out to dig a trench that is full of tree roots or sewer waste, he’ll charge higher. why? because of the increased level of difficulty.
I would argue that it’s only because it takes longer. If it’s a pig to remove the vinyl it’ll cost more, if it’s easy it’ll be cheaper.
John, I mostly agree with your points, I think the main difference being the style of business we get. Personally we get mates in when we’re busy and don’t go for the poles, mainly because someone always has a mate that could do with a few quid. That said, I’m not afraid to get my hands dirty and will often help with the jobs people don’t like just to keep moral up.
Dave – none of your options would apply – I’d price it based on material and time and grin and bear it mate.
Often on jobs like stripping I would only give a ball park figure and let the customer know it depends entirely on how well it comes of.
I’m not against making a wee bit extra here and there – a fair price for a fair job.
My tuppenth anyhoo…. G
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Also with eastern Europeans, if you handed them a chamois asked them to "Polish" some vans would it not confuse them?
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haha Steve ! 😀
quote :Dave – none of your options would apply – I’d price it based on material and time and grin and bear it mate.Gavin the way I see it is this..
One of the few benefits of being self employed is the fact that I can be selective of the work I take on. I appreciate there might be times when I have to be less fussy.
However, I am fortunate enough to be very busy at present. I am working to my full capacity and have been for the past nine months now.
This puts me in a situation where, when faced with the choice of peeling vans for a week or doing more enjoyable work, I’ll go for the more enjoyable work thank you ! I’m only going to entertain the thought of peeling vans if its made worth my while ! ( A bit like the Supermarkets used to entice their staff to work on Sundays before they were all contracted too !
So when faced with quoting for work I don’t particularly fancy I’m left with the options ABC or D !Also just wanted to say,I feel there is a thin line between "making a job worth your while" and "Over Pricing" , which is why I posted this thread in the first place so thanks for everyone’s comments so far.
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Any business, no matter what they do, have prices that are indicative of the type of job they do.
In the sign game (and other service industrys), we have a PV (perceived value) on each job.
It was explained to me by a traditional sign writer when I first got into the game 15 years ago, and his advice was good.
Take the example of doing two jobs. Both jobs use the same amount of material, and take the same amount of time.
When they are finished, one job looks very good and the customer is quiet pleased. The second job looks outstanding, for whatever reason. It may be the colours work better, or you’ve chosen a better font, but the customer is ecstatic.
Do you charge the same for each job based on the value of the material used and time taken? You could, but you shouldn’t.
The perceived value by the client is in the design or the finished product. They both would be happy to pay the same price. The first client would probably think that it was a fair price, because he was happy with the job.
The second client would think that he had got a bargain, because he was ecstatic. That’s the thing about a PV
That’s also why some sign shops that do exceptional work can charge so much. Although we would probably think of it as overcharging, it is in truth, that they know the PV of their jobs.
Its a lesson I learned a long time ago.
Removing signage is in the same situation.
The client will most likely see it as ‘too hard’, so they will perceived the value much higher than a simple job. I think in 15 years, I’ve had probably 10 people reject my removal quote on signage. And of those refusals, I never had a client refuse the job on a second vehicle. Why? Because they see it as something they don’t like doing. Unless its a small job, or its only a few years old, if its a commercial sign on a commercial vehicle, then they will perceive their own time as being more valuable than yours, and pay just about anything to get it done.
I don’t say you should rip them off, but don’t do it too cheap either. The PV on removing it is generally higher than putting a sticker on.
From experience, if you ignore the PV rule, it will effectively devalue your worth.
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Only ever had to remove the signage on 1 van. So I guess I lack any base to work from. I just charged my normal hourly rate.
I do remember being charged by the local plumber. The apprentice did the job but the bill was still tradesman rates.
I guess the client works out what the job is worth to them then say yes or no depending on whether they perceive value or not.
Like my apprentice charge I needed the job doing it was done.
Bill arrived- bill paid -
I’ve been reading this thread with interest.
My dilemma is this – I have been asked to quote for re-branding a fleet of vehicles. They also want us to remove all of the old lettering – to be done at various locations (Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness). My problem is I don’t want to be caught up in a time consuming job full of potential problems. At the same time, I don’t want to alienate a good customer by appearing to ask too high a price for the vinyl removal. In reality I don’t want to have to remove the vinyl – but I do want the job of fitting the new layout. What do I do 😕
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Phill I think the best option is to accept the job as to keep your customer and try find somebody to remove the existing graphics for you. I would go as far as saying that even if you don’t make any profit removing the existing graphics you still get the job for the new graphics.
As long as you have somebody you can get to remove it for you and you can trust not to damage the vehicles.
Good luck
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Welcome to my world. 🙂 🙂 🙂
This is the sort of thing I get faced with all the time. Stripping and fitting new is all part of this one job and you can’t cherry pick. We all have to take the rough with the smooth sometimes, so I’m afraid you will just have to get on with it.
There are potential problems in stripping old graphics but, provided you make your customer aware of them beforehand, it becomes his problem if and when they occur. There is no reason why they should cause you any trouble.
I’m not sure about alienating your customer. I’m sure he will think you are asking too much for a simple ten minute job like removing old graphics because they always do, but the reality is that you know how long it will take and must charge accordingly. The bottom line is that if he doesn’t want to pay your price then do you want the job anyway? But isn’t that a risk we take every time we quote for a job, whether it’s one we don’t like, or one we do?
Sometimes you just have to take a chance.
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Dave,
Couldn’t you insert some ‘caviats’ (is that the right term)? Tell them that as you are working with someone else’s materials (stripping the vinyl) you cannot absolutely guarantee there being no glue residue left at the end of the job, or/and there being no guarantee there won’t be some paintwork damage. Not your fault of course, not your materials on the van now, after all.
That only leaves the ‘horrible job’ part of it without the worry that the customer is going to turn around and refuse the finished job after hours of ‘fingertip nightmare’ work.
I’ve had a few awful jobs like that lately and I think I might go down the ‘caviat'(?) road from now on. I found it doubly awful worrying the whole job through about the finished article not being acceptable.
Oh yes, and charge handsomely of course….
Cheers!
Gareth
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Gareth,
The English spelling is caveat. No, hang on a minute, that’s the Latin spelling. 😀
It doesn’t matter who’s vinyl it is, or who applied it. Problems only usually arise when a van has had paint repairs during the course of it’s life.
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Or if you let Gareth ‘d1ckfingers’ Lewis loose on a van with a stanley blade and a heat gun!
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we usually recommend that the customer gets a mobile valeter into remove the old graphics then give the vehicle a good clean. May cost them a bit more but at least the vehicle looks good when the new vinyl is fitted.
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quote Gareth Lewis:Or if you let Gareth ‘d1ckfingers’ Lewis loose on a van with a stanley blade and a heat gun!
*rofl*
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I do this a lot, indeed have just stripped 12 vans today, for which I charge a minimum of £40.00 per hour + any MBX heads I use for fleet work.
For a one off van that would take about an hour, I’d charge £80.00 +VAT if I had to travel, or £60 if they brought it to me. It’s a crappy job, so I’m not doing it for a cuppa!
Many customers baulk at the cost & say they’ll do it themselves over the weekend, to which I reply ‘I’ll expect your call when you’re halfway through the first side’
Many who attempt it never ever want to do it again, & agree that the cost is worth it.
I like the Idea of chucking a few quid at a couple of Poles though
😛
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Get an MBX vinyl zapper. The wheels cost $30.00 US so somewhere around 15 pounds. Charge your hourly rate at what it would take you with a heat gun and you can make some money. The Zapper will cut your time by at least half as you’re learning how to use it. Pete
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i agree with pete get a mbx vinyl remover.
i charge £90 on a average van to remove sides front and back.
i look at it this way, if iam going to do any type of work for a customer i want to be paid well. for big customers i insert the charge for removing vinyl into the applying cost reason for you don’t want them to think you are ripping them off for removing vinyl!
for the 1 of customers i quote them for the vinyl removal and if they moan i say you are able to do it you re self in a polite way, don’t give them any tips on removing eg hair dryer, hot water ect and 9 time out of 10 they will say i can see why you charge so much. if they bring the van back with vinyl on and ask you to do it wait for them to go and get the mbx out wala bang you have earned youre self a good few quid 😀
i hate taking lettering of with a heat gun!
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mbx demo
http://www.graphicproducts.com/labelers … video.html -
Scott,
Hmmm, this mbx thingy – how much of the job does/can it do? Does it remove glue too? Is there the possibility of paint removal? Perhaps I need to get me one….
Gareth
oops crossed posts! I’ll wtch the demo, perhaps that’ll answer my questions…..
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Thanks for all the comments guys. .
phil
quote :My problem is I don’t want to be caught up in a time consuming job full of potential problems. At the same time, I don’t want to alienate a good customer by appearing to ask too high a price for the vinyl removal. In reality I don’t want to have to remove the vinyl – but I do want the job of fitting the new layout. What do I doExactly my thoughts !
As for the MBX tools, don’t these struggle with large areas of vinyl ( flood coats and wraps ? ) the vans a partially wrapped so I reckon it would be quicker the old fashioned way. .. heat gun, burnt fingers and a razer !
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http://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … hlight=mbx
http://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p … hlight=mbx
Ooh! Now I’m not so sure….
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I have an MBX and only ever consider using it for small text (say less than 2") on fine fonts, pinstripes or any vinyl I can`t get going with the heatgun.
If not careful you can burn paintwork or strip the paint off a dodgy paint job. I personally find it easier with the heat gun on anything bigger.
How much I charge depends on the customer. I find the problem with letting the customer do it is how much adhesive is left behind which doesn`t show up until it gets dirty. After all it is relatively easy to remove vinyl, the difficult bit is getting the adhesive to come off at the same time.
Just my take on it.
Cheers
Gary
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http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTt4x&ymXf2EVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666–
quote :I find the problem with letting the customer do it is how much adhesive is left behind which doesn`t show up until it gets dirty. After all it is relatively easy to remove vinyl, the difficult bit is getting the adhesive to come off at the same time.Gary have a look at the link above its 3M product for removing vinyl, I find it messy and not the most effective at removing the vinyl itself however it is fantastic at removing glue ! just brush on wait 15-20 mins scrap with an old plastic squeegee then wash with warm soapy water !
Costs about £15 a litre ( worth every penny ) from most good car body shop suppliers !
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Dave
I have heard about that kind of thing. Like you say it is quite expensive. I usually just cover the glue with white spirit till it softens and then wipe away. And then go through the normal cleaning process.The 3M stuff may be worth looking at of you have a few to do.
Cheers
Gary
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gareth
they are no good for removing large areas of vinyl but as gary says good for small stuff.i had a ford KA in a few weeks ago and it was covered in loads of little playboy stickers, mbx worked a treat.
for the glue i run a rag around with some panel cleaner on (from auto parts) then degrease if iam going to apply vinyl. i do have this 3m spray to remove glue but its £12 odd a can from hexis where as panel cleaner is £10 for 5lr tin.i did have one problem with a van where it started to take the paint of so i resorted to the heat gun. i think that was because the van had been resprayed.
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be interested to know what brand of panel clean your using, I find panel clean / panel wipe great for wiping down panels before application but it wont remove glue at all. . . also find white spirits useless. . only thing that works for me is Meths and this 3M stuff ( nasty to use but by far the most effective at removing glue ! )
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Dave
I find that if you soak the adhesive in white spirit it softens it enough to be able to get rid with a bit of elbow grease (available at all leading DIY stores). I`m not suggesting its the best way but it is a cost effective way.Cheers
Gary
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Dave, I use glue and tar remover from Brown Brothers it shifts anything, and gets you high as a kite 😮 😮 😮
Peter
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dave
i use a panel cleaner called u-pol comes in a purple tin.i put my space heater on flatout give it a good soak then rub clean.
i find the warmer the van is the easyer it comes of. the heater dose suck up a bit of oil wen its on flatout though!the 3m stuff is better but to expensive.
i think you would be able to get it a lot cheaper direct of 3m, you will probably have to buy in bulk. -
i use panel wipe for the glue too (solvent thinners does the same job), use it on a cotton rag, or scrunched up tissue towel, give it a good liberal soaking and leave for 10 mins, then when ready, give it another dousing and use a squeegiee or razor scraper to remove the glue, it just slips off, the more stubborn glue will come off with a little elbow grease.
it’s the best way i’ve found, can usually do a whole van side in about an hour (depending on coverage!)
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I use orange citrus oil based removers. They don’t evaporate, or smell nasty, are non toxic and work a treat. Use the same as the other removers; soak on glue for 10 minutes, then scrape off with a plastic razor or squeegee.
Doesn’t wreck your skin either…. and you have a fresh smell rather than something that smells like a garage when you’ve finished.
I buy it in 20 litre drums here, works out about $5 per litre, but because it does not dry quickly, it goes further than petroleum based products.
Hope that helps
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