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comments please on glass etch cracking windows?
Anyone heard of it happening?
Obviously everyone knows that standard vinyls and colours can cause problems but I have never known this with etch or films that let most light through.
Comments? thoughts ?
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18 Replies
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Although it’s a rare occurance, yes, vinyl applied to glass can cause it to crack. Check out this link from another board…
http://signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10034Checkers
a.k.a. Brian Born
Harrisburg, PA USA -
Thanks Guys
Not quite that simple though. Most people know that colours (even white!)on glass can cause windows cracking but this is semi clear window etch.
There must be thousands of jobs out there with etch on and some really big bits.
My main supplier just told me that there is NO way it could be the etch as if even one broke they would have to stop selling it!
Great! but I just spoke to Spandex who said there HAVE been cases of window etch cracking glass and you have to leave a 5mm gap round the edge!
Thats okay on some designs but will you be able to do it on all?
Even then if thats is the case I suspect that then occasionally the glass would crack!!!
So what do we do? Start telling customers that there is still a chance their windows would break?
Its a bit like ford selling you a car and saying there might be a problem with it!!!
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hi, sorry to semi hijack this post, but i never knew about glass cracking because of vinyl, can you tell me more, and what conditions this happens in.
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😕 we recently covered 7 windows with frosted etch,each one 7ft x 4, with text and graphics removed,…thankfully its in the shade all day due to its location but we have other work which is exposed to the sun
would be interested in hearing more about the possibilites of it causing the glass to break…
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If it is a known problem of glass cracking/breaking do you get the customer to sign a disclaimer in case the glass does break? ie il do the job but bear in mind if the glass breaks its down to you! asking as im about to do 2 shop fronts next week and they are in the sun most of the day 😕
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I doubt white opaque vinyl would do this, as we’ve done thousands of windows with all kinds of vinyl and window film, and rarely come across one that has broken of its own accord yet! Even when done edge to edge with the glass out! I think it all boils down to temperature, thickness of glass, reflective or matt and if its internal or external. My Dad is the one to ask, but he’s in bed 🙂
I’ll ask him tomorrow.
Adam
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we have done lots of windows with etch and normal vinyl some in shade some in direct sun, in 10 years I have fortunatly not had a customer come back and say the glass has cracked or broken maybe we have been lucky 🙄
Lynn
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I too have done many examples of fitting vinyl to windows without any problems with cracking. The theory does make sense though – a dark colour will absorb much more heat than white vinyl etch vinyl or no vinyl at all. Thermal expansion will be minimal with glass, but as Shane explained in his thread – wrongly fitted or "tightly fitted" glass could potentially cause a problem.
My advice is – dont worry about it – it’s unlikely to happen – if it does its unlikely to be a single cause that has made the glass break. And leaving a border will not make any difference as this will have a neglible effect on any thermal expansion of the glass.
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We have had the problem occur, twice on the same set of windows.
First time round we put it down to coincidence, old glass / kids smashing etc. The customer had to have over a grands worth of glass replaced.
Prior to redoing the windows we spoke to Metamark whose vinyl we had used. They were emphatic that it wasn’t due to their vinyl and gave us the go-ahead to use it again. We then redid the windows as a gesture of goodwill to the customer. I got a call the next day to say the windows had gone again.
We spoke to Pilkingtons and Metamark also consulted a glass expert and apparently it is a very well known phenomena within the glass industry – somewhere i have a 20page document on it!
The end result was we and Metamark between us had to pay for the replacement glass costs etc and Metamark have since put a disclaimer in their product notes as a result.
The downside was that nobody including the experts could explain why it happened on these windows yet hadn’t happened on the hundreds of windows we had done previously or was considered a common problem within the sign industry
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Sorry Guys but some of you are wrong and have been lucky.
If you cover ANY glass with large blocks of STANDARD vinyl the glass can crack. Obviously in lots of situations you can get away with it (facing north, out of sun, interior etc etc) but if the glass is subject to temp extremes there is a very big risk of breakage.
In 25 years (16 years on my own) we have had two occurances when vinyl first came out and people were unaware of the problem. From that point on we used to tell customers that if they insisted on us doing it it was at their risk. I thought that was the end of it and we were covered but…..
imagine my horror having told my customer that i could not use white vinyl on his window as it could break but using etch was ok, only now to find out it still is a problem!!!!!
Interesting to hear the Metamark story was it ordinary or etch??
I am not sure about disclaimers or trying to pass the onus back to the customer in this age of health & safety. If you did a job and the glass cracked, fell and someone got hurt do you really think you can get away with " I said that would happen but he told me to do it?
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Hi
The metamark was the standard frosted. Their disclaimer is to the signmaker, ie ‘we carry the can’ not them. I believe that Oracle also have a similar disclaimer within their notes. the initial thought was the original glass was tight in the frame, but at the re-installation of the glass they ensured this didn’t happen.
The only other factor was strong sunlight and curiously it happened on each occasion to the same window out of four windows
I often wonder if we had put the vinyl on the outside of the glass whether this would have made a difference but after a shared cost of 2 k, replacing tow large pieces of glass plus two sets of frosted vinyl weeding application, travel etc we weren’t about to find out.
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Martin
I spoke to Metamark Technical yesterday and I was told that etch was fine and that in no way could it have caused the glass to crack and if it did they would have to stop selling it!!!!!
What you have just said is exactly my point – If every time you do a job there is a risk (however slight) you could be liable are you going to do it?
And to all the following….
If later today you get asked to do a £950.00 etched vinyl job on £7k of glass facing south, are you still going to do it and not worry or try to cover yourself? -
if I was you I would speak to Mike Stuart the MD or Karen Marshal the representative, they were both involved in this issue and in defence of them they handled it very responsibly and fairly.
As to the latter question I would not turn away £950 of work I would tell them of the experience and warn that there is a slight risk of cracking and they had to be aware of this and accept that risk as theirs.
I would then counter this by pointing out that there are millions of windows across the world many in far more extreme climates than the UK which have various vinyls types on them so whilst a risk exists it is not a major risk
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Thanks Martin
I sort of agree with you, my concern is that I don’t think that you can pass the risk on like that. If you supply / fit it and a member of the public gets injured/ killed its down to you.
Latest legislation means that you are responsible for the safety of people visiting your premises even they came in uninvited, so supplying something knowingly with a potential problem must be illegal not matter how you wrap it up!
Would you accept it if one of your family was hurt and somebody knew it could happen?
I want answers from our suppliers including preventative measures (like fitting of safety film also if neccessary)
Don’t forget that this years temperatures are higher and that vinyl (and vinyl to glass) is still a relatively new technique 20-30 years. More sites are using laminate and twin wall glass so the incidences may increase.
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I would have personally said that the risk of somebody being injured is zero, ie we are talking about the glass cracking not falling out of its frame
It is the falling out which causes the risk of injury to members of the public. The clients own building maintenance program then becomes responsible for ensuring that cracked glass is replaced and does not fall and injure people.
That then leaves them purely with the issue of who picks up the bill for the cracked pane to be replaced.
In my opinion if you have warned them correctly then they have assumed that risk and any consequential losses, provided you didn’t understate the risk, ie if you said it was a ‘rare occurrence’ but in fact it happened in 20% of situations then that would be negligent advice and as a result you would be liable
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Its a nice theory and probably one I will use myself…
but about 10 years ago I supplied a 4mtr x 1.5 mtr piece of Glass with decoration front & back to a major airline on a high street in london.
It was the largest piece of glass you could get and it was toughened and laminated.
I got a glass specialist to supply it and check that what we were using it for was safe and i got them to organise fitting early on a sun morning using a special crane scaffolding and about eight blokes.
When I got to site I thought (IMHO) that the scaffolding looked a bit small and that it was a bit too close to the structure. The eight blokes struggled to get it in place and had to force it a bit.
As I was watching them struggle I said to my partner I don’t like the look of this and then "I think its cracked" my partner thought I was kidding – I wasn’t. I have never seen eight blokes jump down from a scaffold so quick!
I was told that even though it was laminated and safety glass it could have shattered and that is why they got out the way quick.
As I had got them to install and supply the glass they had to refit the job two weeks later which they did no probs with a bigger crane and a more mobile scaffold. I even got my costs to renew the graphics I did originally taken off their bill to me.
Once the glass was up there it was all within a frame but I still wonder what would have happened if it had shattered, I suspect the etch vinyl film on the back held it together.
What happens if a piece does fall out or the thing does shatter.
My point is that you need to cover every angle and its not easy to pass that to the site if you were aware of the danger. By pointing it out to site you are saying I know its wrong but will do it anyway.
Its not that simple
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I think the only person who could answer that would be a lawyer which I am not, I’m sure there must be some case law somewhere,
Apart from that I would consider it becomes a case of reasonable precautions etc and that is why we all carry business insurance and pay thru the nose for it too
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