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Beaten by a ridiculous price! What do you think?
I recently lost a job for a lightbox sign. I’ll describe the sign and would appreciate other’s opinions on whether I am too dear or whether the customer got an incredible bargain.
24′ x 2′ box. 18 off 10″ high built up perspex letters and 32 off 4″ flat cut 3mm perspex letters. Plus about 2 metres of inkjet print.
Also: projecting sign, illuminated 4′ x 2′ double sided with full photographic prints to both sides.
Made by a company in London, so that’s a 140 mile round trip to fit.
1800 squids the lot!
This isn’t a bad sign, in fact it seems to be well made. All the acrylic lettering is obviously hand cut but looks pretty good.
Is this the shape of things to come? Cheapo prices from Turkish signmaking sweatshops in London or am I just overpricing things? I was going to charge about the same but using only translucent vinyl.
What do you lot reckon.
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35 Replies
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Sorry Andy that is the way it going, I looked at replacing a sign in bury park. it was all singing and dancing stainless cut out and biult up with halo lighting
£1500 fitted! I just walked away, If you want to compete you will have to go into mass production,
Peter -
Dont know anything about lightboxes and stuff so i cant help you…..but i noticed an ad in the local paper tonight…”Have your van signwitten £40″
Dont know what you get for that but i will be ringing them tomorrow
Iain
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It’s mad isn’t it? I’m not worried, I earn a living and this is the first time I have suffered at the hands of stupid pricing from out of town. I’m very lucky to live in a smallish town with not much competition. The job in question would have cost them at least double if they’d gone local. Even so, just pricing up the raw materials alone they can’t be making a living out of it.
Iain, there are plenty of muppets out there willing to work for beer money. Fortunately there are also plenty of discerning customers who appreciate the level of service given to them by a professional.
Tomorrow I will be meeting a major international company to discuss a fleet of vehicles. Not because I do any van for 40 quid, but because another customer has told them “give this man a ring, he’ll do a good job.”
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Unfortunately andy they do make a living, they may or may not be “cowboys” but sometimes the “cowboys” grow to be sheriffs, and then ranch owners.
There can be great savings when buying in quantity, and selling en mass, thats how all the big retailers do it from cars to carrots, it will and probably has, already come to signs. But dont worry mate, there will still be a place for me and thee, plodding along making a few quid where we can. just like the old blacksmiths and stone masons. I believe that old VW Mechanics can still earn a meagre living!
Peter -
I/m not worried by this £40 geezer but it does give potential customers another bullet to fire in my direction. Good job that being married for nearly 22 years has thickened my skin a bit……..but thats a different story
Iain
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Let’s face it Peter, it can be a very profitable business. Just today I cut 1 metre of vinyl at a cost of about £5, stuck it on a van, half an hours work for £80. You can’t really blame people for jumping on the bandwagon.
£40 a van? I aint taking a pay cut for no-one!
I love this job.
Iain, the 40 quid bloke is definately not giving the same level of effort you are. I’ve heard all that stuff before from customers. Some will go for the 40 quid, many won’t. They will appreciate someone taking their hard earned cash a bit more seriously, and earning it. £40 quid for any van buys crap and most of them know it.
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Me to Andy,
But would love to do 10 vans everyday for £80 each, but would rather do 2 for £400 each. As it is I make enough without really trying. I dont want to work 40 hours a week, been there done that. I dont encourage not working hard though, just getting a fair price for the job. -
Don’t you think we could be accused of being greedy though?
Look at the example I gave above. 5 quid cost, 1/2 hour labour; most people would be happy to earn £10 an hour. I earned the equivilent of £150 an hour.I may not sleep tonight with all the guilt. 😉
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I recently had to quote for a 4wd clubs graphics.
50 off 420mm x 120mm logos (25black, 25 silver) and two that were 1200mm long.
Now I’m the first company to do the large ones but the smaller ones had been done before by someone else.
Whilst I am new in this game, I don’t want to charge daft prices that won’t earn me a living, anyway I was told what the ‘old’ bloke had charged and I suppose as a bit of a test I delibratly priced mine about 10% more, partically as I don’t wanna be the ‘I beat any price’ bloke and partly because I did want to make some money.
Result: We got the job anyway, reason: level of service 😀
Main problem with other companies I seem to have mentioned to me round here is service, quality is good but alot of them have the ‘next week’ attitude and I often hear ‘he’d been promising to do it for ages’, so as long as I keep the service up, theres hope for us yet :lol1:
Lee
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I got a mail yesterday from a large signage co , , vinyl cut lettering etc for 2 doors , R75.00 for BOTH doors inclusive of fitting but no artwork or design – R12 = 1 quid , IE 6.25 for BOTH doors!!!!!
Contravision , printed and fitted , full back window coverage + a front windscreen sun visor strip , small window R125 , large one R225 (IE 10 quid for a small one , and 18.75 for a large one.
These prices ALSO reflect 14% VAT!!!!!!!
Thats part of the reason I do as little vehicle work as possible. -
It was my intention to go for vehicle work when I started, as it does have high profit margins, generally speaking. It hasn’t panned out that way, but fortunately I have the experience to take on all types of sign project. I guess other people think the same way – most newbie (I mean beginners) members on here state that they want to get into vehicle graphics or have done a few vans. I think it’s seen as an easy way to make money, just look at e-bay under most plotter descriptions. Things like “Instant signmaking business” or “All you need to start doing vehicle graphics”. Yeah, and a brain!
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quote :most people would be happy to earn £10 an hourYes but what they forget is £10 an hr doesn’t pay their bills
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quote big G:Don’t you think we could be accused of being greedy though?I’m not even classed as in the sign trade really , I’m just doing some bitz and bobs , but i can tell you this….
They are paying for more than materials and your time !!!
They are paying for a skill !!
I still work for an American computer company , our customers pay £1k per day for my services (£125 per hr) (i don’t get the money) and this is acceptable in the trade , I’m not even a “craftsmen”
you are !!!
If you gave the vinyl and the use of your cutter to a guy that doesn’t know what he is doing , how long will it take him , divide them hours across your £80….
Everybody i have spoken to thinks it takes a good day to do a simple ish sign job on a van say, if you can do the job quicker , i don’t feel it should be cheaper !!
The find that customers imagine how long it would take them to do it !!!
SD
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abanitio, i’m with you dude, i do plenty of small jobs like yours, but i’ll turn em round in as short a time as poss, i’ve had several repeat orders from clubs due to this, never huge money in it, but the kids dont mind weeding all them small stickers and they’re cheaper than me !!
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Yes you’re right. I’ve done my 20 years working for other people and making them rich (or insolvent actually!) and I charge the going rate similar to what a bigger company would charge – even though my overheads are smaller – because I can. Of course, it’s not every month that there is plenty of work and that has to be considered.
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On the note of the large sign for £1800.00 It’s crazy money.
I think we all get jobs to quote on, and then find out what someone else
has quoted leaving you thinking- how do they do it for that or I’m to expensive -I’m doomed!! But we move on fast and get over it, it’s part and parcel. The longer your in the business you wise up more to the cheapy boys doing vans for a pittance. I know I’d rather do one van for the price of what they do two or three for. The old ‘BUSY FOOL’ saying comes to hand again.
I’ve always said it comes down to education, if someone comes in for a price on a van I give them a price and tell them where would they get that kind of advertising exposure for lets say £150, I usually get something on screen for the to consider and they are sold.
It comes down to the fact I don’t want to do a van for silly money, I don’t want to be dragged down to that level, I pride myself on my design skills and the fact I’ve been in the business for too long.
On the guilt factor of earning £80.00 for half hours work ‘Big G’, as you said it’s not an every day occurrence. I’ve just put a few graphics on on pick up, took me half hour max charged £ 75.00 customer was happy and I felt no guilt. If I had 10 of those a day everyday, I may get a small twinge of guilt , but it just doesn’t happen so the money has got to be made when it can.Martin
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What you have to remember is :lol1:
When you pay a plasterer to do your front room, you’re not paying for the £20 of plaster he uses, you’re paying for the fact he has learned to do something you cant – same with any tradesman, your local garage etc….
I have done jobs where the material costs were not much more than £20, and charged over £400 for them – why ? because people have to pay me for :
1. my time
2. the fact I have invested in the machinery to make the signs
3. spent 4 years in university, plus countless hours learning how to design graphics
4. the fact I can fit signs to vehicles withut messing it up ( usually ! )I could have just sold the customer £20 of vinyl, but would they have ended up with the same quality of job if they’d designed it themselves and cut it out themselves with scissors ?
WE ARE PROFESSIONALS AND HAVE SPECIALIST SKILLS – IF PEOPLE WANT TO MAKE USE OF THEM, THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT !
I’m sure for £40 Robs competitors customer will end up with ‘a sign’ on their van – will it be as good as one someone charges £300 for ? will it have graphics ? will it stand out and be noticed ? will it look professional ?
Never feel guilty about being paid for what you know – people working for £10 an hour are not going to stay in business very long, and if customers are too stupid to see the difference between a cowboys job and professional work, then thats not your fault.
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I’m with you Big G, thats the way i charge..
The things we do are normally one offs, how many other places could you buy a one off hand made item, cheap??Look at plumbers, i had a blocked drain, they wanted £70.00 callout and the £70.00 per half hour plus VAT, with a miniumium hour charge.
Garages, took my car in £55 per hour labour charge, based on what they think it may take.. say 3 hours by the book but in fact take 45mins.
Yet as general signmakers, we do designs,chase people on the phone, hand make things and often fit the signs, for £10 an hour.. were not like the plumbers who’s only outlay is a van and phone, we have shops, units or workspaces at home, gas, electric, broadband, phone and fax line to pay for..
I was told by someone that were he lives, Tescos have built houses to home all their polish workers, They get less money but have free accomadation while working for Tescos. If stuff like this carries on we will all be priced out of work, coz its impossible to compete.
Someone say from Turkey is used to living with 10 or 15 other faimily members in one house, they come over, rent one house, do jobs of say £5 per hour X 15 = £75 per hour their costs are all shared for electric rent tc… So they can afford to live quite well, yet the average faimily only has 4 people living there, so when you look at it that way you can then see the advantages for them..
Simon
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Sorry to go off post but as Simon has mentioned about tescos employing polish people for cheap labour.
Athing i noticed the other day down our street the local co op had the fair trde stickers on meaning they don’t bully and rip suppliers off (if I’m right)
Never seen that at the high and mighty tescos gettin to big for their own boots me thinks. -
Supply and demand is the basis for all business and labour supply is a component. (Eventually cheap labour dries up as aspirations rise)
If the cost of goods goes down due to cheaper input , all consumers benefit. (cheaper prices across the board vs a small group of labour that is outpriced)
Emmigration policies and Govt can and should control the labour pool , other tools like minimum wages , working conditions and so forth serve to do the same , so if there is a prepoderance of cheap labour with no control , Govt is to blame.
Consumers might give stuff like fair labour practices etc lip service but when it comes to their wallets , they are not generally willing to pay more for those principles.
Most businesses actually see themselves becoming less competitive but some choose to ignore it and go down , those that are proactive and reactive rise.
If one cannot compete in a particular area, then it’s time to change direction, become more productive or get out the market – it’s the way it’s always been and is the dynamics of economics and business. -
All depends what your setup is really. If you have the right equipment then £1800 is perfectly do-able to my mind. I’d do the job for that.
What are we talking? 18 x 2ft box- buy it in or make yourself for less than £400 inc Perspex. Built up’s- make yourself for around £5-7 each in perspex. Flat cut letters- half a sheet of Perspex so around £70. Double sided projector max £100 at that size for the raw kit and a couple of metres of translucent at about 2 quid a metre (a 600mm x 900mm projector is £60 all in). 2m of solvent digital print laminated £40 or less tops. Tank of diesel- £50. 1 day on site- I recon a profit of around £900+ for the job- i’d take if for that. Round trip to London for me is 200 miles plus but I do it at least 3 times a week- I’ll take the job at this price.
Locally I have 50+ competitors so I HAVE to travel.
My set up is different to most in that I concentrated on fabricaton gear rather than a cadet/ grenadier which I could never make pay.
Sadly my situation will become the norm for most of you- cheap plotters and all these new suppliers will degrade the business even more than at present- I have at least 3 new suppliers of something or other sign related pop through the door every day.
Vans are good money cos all you need is vinyl and a plotter- if you do more complicated stuff you need routers and all that kind of stuff which is a whole other game.
If you had to buy in all the parts for this particular job then yes £1800 is not enough- if however you make it all from raw components in an efficient way then £1800 is good money.
Just my opinion.
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Hi Southernandy,
Would love to know who some of your suppliers are if you can buy in at those prices… 18′ x 2′ light box complete with panel for less than £400?…. a 600mm x 900mm double sided projecting light box for £100 or was it £60? and 2 meters of solvent print laminated at £40?
Certainly couldn’t get any of my suppliers to get anywhere near to those prices… then again is it a case of you get what you pay for?
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Just got a quote off cherwell £384.00 18 x 2
if you manufactured it yourself there would obviously be a saving
Peter -
Seeing as we’re quoting prices, the company that did the job have just quoted me £375 for a 2’x2′ single sided box with printed graphic; and that apparently is their price to the trade! Yeah, I’m very tempted to buy that one. (Where is the smiley that represents sarcasm?)
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Glad some of you guys ain’t doing the job, the box would have been a few feet short when fitted….lol 😉
Simon
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OOPS
I was working off southerandys size, as he was the one who wondered were to buy boxes at a reasonable price
Peter -
The suppliers I use are reputable and produce good quality products. The guy I buy my lighboxes from has tried to make you all aware of his services on this site- but admin won’t allow it. I’m no fly by nite as we are full BSGA members and cutting corners ain’t allowed.
Off the shelf double sided projecting sign with electrics and 2x Repsol brand opal panels is £59.99 +VAT off the shelf. These are delivered shrunk wrap and ready to go.
If you are talking about the main box it’s two lengths of maincase, 1 length of support, 2 sets of beading, 1 sheet of 1.5mm ali backing and 3x 6ft double gear trays and tubes. Again Perspex is around half a sheet- on this depth you could get away with 3mm but I’d opt for 6mm. If I was building myself I’d use orginal Lucite Perspex. The extrusion for lightboxes and panatrims can be bought from various suppliers easily. Cherwells are someone I don’t use cos their prices are higher than what I can get elsewhere. If you know where to go and you buy packs you can get all kinds of extrusion for minimal cost.
Digital print- I’m doing a trailer wrap for nescafe- 4.5m by 2.6m rectangular shape by 2.4m deep. The price for the prints bought in is £450.00+vat laminated- this is printed on a Grenadier although I have the option of using a Vutek for a bit less. So that’s laminated solvent on decent vinyl- no corners cut there then. The quotes for “sell your digital output for bla bla a square metre” to pay for your machine are not based on any print prices I recognise- the going rate for laminated solvent output is less than £15- this is what I pay.
In terms of vinyl 6-7 exterior gloss I pay around 70p square metre, for translucent I pay £1.20 and appo tape is 50p a square metre. (and this isn’t for cheap rubbish- we have used this vinyl for years and it’s just fine- totally up to the job).
As far as the built ups and flat cut’s go I just make all that in-house. I have priced this again using my supplier list and the materials for this job and I can’t see much more than £600 in materials. So that leaves £1200 to make and fit the job- I’d be happy with that TBH.
I can compete like this cos I spend a lot of time researching suppliers and materials- getting the supply chain correctly setup means I can lower my input costs and compete in the marketplace.
I’ve just done a job in central London with two fairly large Dibond pans, built up halo lettering and frost window graphics for £1000+vat. Everything built from scratch in a day and fitted in a morning- I’m happy with that and I’ve got 4 more contracts from it.
My advice is look constantly for better, cheaper suppliers. In the UK no one can assume anything- the Poles, Turks, Chinese and Indian’s will be only too pleased to pick up the slack.
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Oh, I see my mistake I was talking 18ft instead of 24ft. Nevermind that makes hardly any difference on the price- one more 6ft double gear tray and a bit extra beading & maincase and a smidge extra on the Perspex.
If you wanna make a big thing on the misquoted size then fair enough- my mistalke it still doesn’t change the fact that £1800.00 is a fair price for this project and I’ll happily do work like this all day- I can make good money at that price.
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quote :If you wanna make a big thing on the misquoted size then fair enough
It was mean’t to be light hearted mate??????
I would say its would be a big thing if you made it to that size, don’t you??
Simon
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Sorry Dude,
Stressy day down here- I really would rather be on the beach 😥
Seriously- on those prices I was mentioning the suppliers are out there- just take some digging out- have a go for yourself and see what you can come up with- when I first started poking around for new suppliers my material bills almost halved in a couple of weeks.
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I’d be more than happy to hear where you can get such economical ready made lightboxes from, seriously. If the board doesn’t allow such an advert, PM me. I don’t have the facility or space to make my own, so am always on the lookout for better prices, so long as the quality is there.
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Yeah,
Wot Big G said
Iain
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Hey ho, I don’t post here much any more as the sign side of things didnt really work out (wasnt trying to be a sign business, it just looked fun to be honest).
But this is a similar story to graphic design in general. Design software and PC’s are everywhere now and people think they can do it themselves. Which in turn means they dont place much value on graphic designers work. Combine that with LOTS of people wanting to be graphic designers and prices have just dropped. I get the odd client willing to pay something worthwhile, but few and far between to be honest (that may be my doing tho! :D)
Not sure what Im trying to say, just wanted to add my bit.
I would never go head to head against an established sign company, but if someone knows I can do it through word of mouth and Im capable of the job I’ll take it. Its just another service to offer. Anything big I just pass it on, or try to. I had a massive sign to do once and I tried to give it to other people, but no one was interested. I didnt want it so I quoted a ridiculous amount to get rid of the client, but he agreed!!! Hence my front room became a sign workshop for a day. 2 8×6′ panels of graphics, no construction just hand it over for £800.
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After having supplied a similar lightbox complete with built up letters, digital print etc and window graphics to a furniture chain for several years, for which we had to travel on average 4 hours there and back, they asked us to supply a quote for the same again. We kept our price the same as it had been for many years and they dropped us like a stone saying they could get it for nearly half the price.
I’m certain if we had all the equipment necessary to fabricate everything ourselves we could do things cheaper.
When I get the opportunity I’ll go past this new shop and see what kind of quality you get for half the price. -
Baship, thats how it works, I’m sure the sign will be similar to the one you would have done,
can of worms opening 😀
if joe bloggs can do it cheaper, he is either cleverer than you or a fool.
its up to you to decide. can you be cleverer than joe?
Peter
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