Banners: Digital Printing costs & quality

[Paul Goodwin]

Cheaper isn’t always better quality……

[steve-rogers]

Anyone who charges less than that needs a good talking to in my opinion.

As has been said cheaper isn’t always better…..

[Sarandaz]

Hi Sean, That is good price.Though i dont know much about banners but i am thinking now (mod-edit)
thanks sarandaz

[David Rowland]

Thats too cheap in my book!

[Derek Heron]

Hi all

i am looking to start printing banner material on my cadet and looking at £40 per metre, which i think is about right so yours sound really cheap if they are supplying the banner as well.
If anybody prints banners on there cadet could do with some pointers
heater settings etc
and the best supplier of banner material. while i am on the banner subject
hemming with double sided tape what is the best tape to use. i have a sample of banner bond are there any others
also any tips on keeping the hem true all the way along.
as i am back on line hope your all keeping well.

Derek Heron

[Sean Pooley]

Judging by that response im on to a deal!! 😎

Ive had a couple of banners of him in the past and there pretty good quality, I think because i have quite a lot of digital print of him hes looking after me 😉

Thanks for your input everyone

Sean

[Robert Lambie]

a good a deal is only good as the banner is good, how do you know the ink is uv durable, what type/grade is the banner material, how pixelated/vibrant is the artwork, how good are the hems, eyelets, if any? etc etc
lots to think about before before you realise you have a "truely" good deal.
however… £35-40 is a good guide on bottom level pricing to charge out at for a square metre on good grade banner material using aggressive solvent inks.

my opinion (SORRY TO OFFEND) if a sign maker is charging as low as the BIG trade suppliers for printing they are desperate or busy fools.

[Peter Normington]

The price may be cheap, but if the quality is good, then go for it, its not your problem if your supplier is pricing to cheap, he may not be.

Raccoon are quoting a finished banner price of from £12 pm on the back page of Sign update, And I dont think they are busy fools…
Just make sure you add a good mark up so you can buy elswhere if need be.

Just to add also, a banner, by its very nature is a temporary thing, so it not as important to have the very best long lasting cost a fortune print,
that you would expect on a permanent sign.

Peter

[Robert Lambie]

i agree peter, but depends if you take all into consideration?

do they have a setup charge… if not why not? setup takes longer than printing…
what sort of machine do they use? irrelevant maybe… but lets say a grenadeir will do the printing twice as fast as a cadet…
does the person running the machine take 2 minutes to operate the machine and software or are they slow, finding their feet etc…
all this adds to the ridiculous price being charged merely to compete!

at the end of the day, yeah, if you get a good decent banner at a good price whats the issue? for me… the issue is the same person is not only charging our trade this price but probably the same or lower to general public, knocking the backside out of our trade because of their desperation to make a couple of quid. they will be short lived, gone in months to come but the knock on effect of poor pricing effects us all!

know disrespect here, but Like i said, if undereducated sign makers don’t know enough about what they are buying, how do they know what is, isn’t a good deal.

.

[David Rowland]

Well as I said before Peter… if we went as low £12 pm then particurly on 100% black coverage then it is likely it would cost more then that.

Vutek printers and others have cheap inks but the machinery costs more to buy…

its like vista print and business cards, they are cheap for lo-qtys but complelty automated and hardly any staff to pay

[Peter Normington]

Rob,
do you ask your vinyl supplier to increase the costs per m if you think he is supplying to cheap? I think not. do you shop around to buy the cheapest, like for like inks and materials? I think so.

Anybody that has invested in a printer or any capital equipment, will normally work out how much they need to charge to cover their costs.
but there are great advantages in quantities, if your machine is running a production run for 8 hours a day, it is making far mor than someone who just uses it for a few hours per week. The market will always find its own level, fly first class on BA or just do easyjet. we all have to cut are cloth to make the most of it.
We all set our own margins, if we fall by the wayside we can only blame ourselves, but overpricing a commodity, is as bad as selling too cheap.

Just my opinion,

Peter

[Peter Normington]

Cant really see an argument Dave.
Why should I pay more when I can buy cheaper?
I dont use raccoon btw, so I cannot vouch for their quality.
anyone in business will buy from the vendor who offers the best overall package, price, quality, service and back up, are all factors to consider.
If one company have more efficient methods, and can do the same job cheaper, its not them that are to cheap, its the other company that are to dear.

Thats business, and how systems get improved, to keep up.

Peter

[Chris Dowd]

quote Dave Rowland:

Well as I said before Peter… if we went as low £12 pm then particular on 100% black coverage then it is likely it would cost more then that.

All I can say Dave is I’m glad we never bought a Mimaki then…….

Our costs are well below half of that on the Seiko, using genuine inks and a very good (Xerox) banner media!

[David Rowland]

chris, i said 100% coverage.. well, I mean a CMYK black which is expensive on any printer as it eats up ink like anything…

However when u add up everything of what our business would cost then we cant do it for that.. might as well say no to the job.

To be quite honest, I heard the Seiko was more expensive to run… 😉

[Peter Normington]

OK guys "costs" are made up of overheads + materials + depreciation etc.

If you have a lot of staff to feed, then your costs will be more, but you can produce more, in theory.

But you gotta ask yourself, how many people can one printer support?

Peter

[Chris Dowd]

I never said we would do it for that price Dave, and having recently ran some 100% coverage black tests I stand by my comments.

Don’t know where you got your Seiko running costs from, however, I’d dispute that as well (saying that, it depends where you get your inks from, having just done a pricing exercise on genuine inks, the price can vary by almost £50 per litre).

Ran over 200 square metres today ready for finishing on Tuesday, Derek, we use Bannerbond all the time, the only thing I’ll say is when you put the roll down, place it on the backing paper provided. otherwise the edges tend to get stuck together making the roll pretty much useless.

[Robert Lambie]

Peter:

quote :

Do you ask your vinyl supplier to increase the costs per m if you think he is supplying to cheap? I think not.

Cost is completely irrelevant in my opinion peter. It’s what you get for your money!
No, I don’t ask him to increase the costs on a product; I simply don’t buy the product if it is NOT equivalent to what I already buy/know.
In my opinion, Knowing allot about what you offer is key to being successful in business.
I won’t name names, but only 2 weeks ago I went through this exercise.
I needed hundreds of metres of digital printing. I already have a wide format, fast machine but wanted to sub it out to free up our machine, so I bought in.
I had 7 quotes, 4 of which were more than £1000 over the price of the others. (I went for the dearer) not because I thought there must be a catch with the others, but because print resolution was better, banner material, turnaround. Hemming etc all superior to what I had been quoted on. In turn, I could confidently quote my customer against others.
If the customer says (and normally does) your too dear rob… I will baffle them with science. Quote banner grade, UV stability, print resolution and more.
This makes “any” buyer wobble… 9/10 times he will go with the form to offer the best product but also stands behind the product and to educate them on it at the same time.
At the end of the day, let “Him” take the sting for buying wrong, not you!

All this reverts back to the guy on the corner sign shop selling cheap prints… is he “really selling cheap prints and are the people buying from him undereducated?” “is the prints onto cheap material using poor inks etc?” in allot of cases usually both!

[Chris Dowd]

I agree with you 100% there Rob, we tried samples and samples of banner until we got to the one we use now, it’s not the cheapest, but it’s not all down to price.

Going through the same process again with mesh, the one that it looks like we are going to settle on is almost double the cost of some others, however, the quality is far superior.

At the end of the day, it’s our reputation on the line!

[Peter Normington]

Rob, got to seriously disagree.
Cost is relevant, that is what we were talking about. like for like,
I will go for the cheaper option, no argument. Would you buy a new car, or a shirt without comparing prices. Yes you get what you pay for, but if you are getting like for like, always go for the cheaper option.

Baffle with science? dont you mean bullsh1t? (Sorry to add as an edit,
But this comment was made in a humorous way, just re read in the cool light of morning)

sorry mate I never rip people off, I charge a fair price for a good job.
I explain the pros and cons, I buy in as cheap as I can (like for like) and pass on the cost saving to my customer, that way I stay competetive.
😀

Peter

[Chris Dowd]

Peter, how do you know your getting "like for like"?

Ask me for a quote for banner, ask Rob for a quote for banner, ask your existing supplier for a quote for banner…….. ask yourself are we all quoting "like for like"? I doubt it very much as we all use different printers, different inks and more than likely different media, all of which will give a different result, and before you say it, no you wouldn’t get a print sample from us as we’re too busy at the moment to print any!

Ask yourself how many jobs you’ve lost where you have quoted "like for like", only to find when you see the finished result it was totally different to what you had quoted.

I believe cost is irrelevant, that’s why for example we only use genuine inks, when we could be getting a similar product elsewhere cheaper!

[Kevin Flowers]

(mod-edit)

[Chris Dowd]

Kevin,

I think if you read the full thread, Peter made that comment, Rob agreed with Peter!!

[Kevin Flowers]

May Be one of the moderators by PM if they like can explain what was wrong with what i wrote i wasn’t insulting Rob i was stating a point about is opion on smaller signmakers and yes it was Robs comment not Peters

Kev

[Chris Dowd]

Just read it again Kev, that quote was definately Peters!!

[Kevin Flowers]

Chris
thanks for pointing it out, i’ve re read the thread but can’t find Peter saying that maybe its me. Has i said don’t normally get on my soap box, but if the mods feel me raising a concern over a comment that was made worse than a comment of

All this reverts back to the guy on the corner sign shop selling cheap prints

then let it be, but that comment insults a majority of the members of this site. I didn’t even attack Rob just that iwas surprised at the comments he had made. As far as i can see the Mod Edit just backs up the comment.

Kev

[Ian Higgins]

Read this thread with interest.

In my experiance the customer wants the best price possible…..

9 times out of 10 they could not care less about material UV etc.. they just want it to look good and will say it has to last 6 months etc..

I often miss out on banner work as I have been too expensive, since speaking to a member on here I will now buy in most of mine as I have found a contact who prints them for about the cost of my materials without the labour.

At the end of the day I guess we all charge as much as we feel the job can take. If someone can get it done cheaper elsewhere then so be it… I do this job to make money.

Cheers
Ian

[Shane Drew]

Really interesting thread this one.

I have two banner grades that I print on. One really cheap glossy 440g weight, and one acrylic coated, really good satin photo quality one. If

The cheapy cost me about $4pm and the photo one about $10pm

If my client wants cheap, I’ll quote on the lowest priced material, if my client wants ‘a professional looking job’ I’ll quote the dear one. If I think the job will look better on the higher priced material tho, I’ll quote both, explaining to them that the quality of the expensive one will do the job better, because the result will be better.

But I’ll also take into the PV (perceived value) of the job.

If I do artwork and the clients says ‘that looks fantastic’, then they perceive a value higher then we would perhaps charge. I’ll charge more for that job. But if the client is happy but not ‘over the moon’ I’ll charge my normal rate.

You always know when you have not charged the ‘perceived value’ when your clients say ‘wow that was cheaper than I thought’ or ‘is that all it is going to cost me?’.

That said, I don’t think you are ripping anyone off if you try to steer them to a better/dearer result. I think Robs approach is more salesmanship than it is bulldust. I agree with that approach, as I do it myself to varying degrees.

You could apply that same theory to all aspects of the sign trade. I am always up against ‘uneducated’ sign shops and sign makers who will quote for a job based on price, but use totally inappropriate materials. Sure they get a cheap job, but 9 or 12 months down the line, the job is fading etc, how can you argue they got value then? When I may quote 40% or 50% dearer, and use the correct material, and the clint would get 3 or 5 years out of the job. I may have been dearer and seen by some as ripping the client off, but in the long run I have given them much better value for money.

Salesmanship is also needed to convince the client we are, in fact, right. Explaining the pros and cons of different material is all part of that situation. They may not understand a word you say, but if you are convincing enough, they’ll likely go with you.

As I say, interesting thread, everyone has a view, and it is good that we can each express it in a civilised manner (chat.)

[Sean Pooley]

Think ive started something here! 😉

Thanks for the input everyone, just for the record i do all the artwork and send it to the supplier who then produces my banner then i collect it finished ready to fit.

Although i agree with Rob about quality, the job in hand is a banner that will be changed every month because of dates and fixtures meaning last months banner makes it to the bin (hope that makes sense!).

Peter is also right on the other hand. Why should we pay more when we are getting what we need for the job??.

Sean

[Robert Lambie]

Peter… Like for Like?

As has been said, how do you know like “IS” for like, unless you look under the bonnet of the cars you are looking at buying, that “your” educated enough to tell engine make etc just by looking at it.
The list goes on… customers are blind to what they are being sold.
Baffling them with science is not feeding them crap, I meant it as “there are much more to a sign than meets the eye” tell them what cheap results in,
But explain what paying a few quid more does for the sign. 9/10 will take the sign costing a bit more. And that doesn’t necessarily mean I am making more!
I bought my printer because I researched these types of machines over many months. In my opinion I was making the best choice. I could have bought the same sized solvent machine for much less, saved myself thousands. But I didn’t… I bought the best I could afford. I have no hesitation to argue with folk undercutting me on “like for like” if I know they aren’t.
Educating your customer of this is all you can do and leave the ball in their court. Should he agree but still wants cheap, then so be it. But now you are covered.

Kev, I apologise if you have taken what I said personally mate. No disrespect meant.
I used this merely as an example. NOT ALL of course, but many small high street sign shops seem to get their pricing structures wrong, or they desperately undercut the going rate to try and survive due to high overheads of running a business in a high profile main street. I in no way mean to stereo type this type of business… I guess I could have been a bit more tactful. Sorry… Saturday night, few wines and on my high horse. 😳 :lol1:

[Kevin Flowers]

Hi Rob
not a problem, just a shock to hear the man who runs this site for signmakers large & small to make acomment like that, puzzled by the mod edit has it wasn’t a slant against you just my views on what was said, but has far has i am concerned done & forgotten.
My sales market i am presuming is totally different to yours, i can walk to at least 10 other signmakers within 10-15 minutes of me and quite a few more if i’m driving. Also i compete with signmakers from other areas because being so near to the motorway network mainly the M25 means the area can be accessed easily by signmakers outside of the area.
Like all markets i do compete on price but i do also compete on quality, service, design & product. If a customer wants a budget sign then i supply them a budget sign still made to the same high quality. I don’t suddenly think this is a cheap sign lets just throw it together and staple it to the wall.
Their is a market for all levels of signage some signmakers choose to only to do the high level normally by pricing out of the market place. Well best of luck, i myself read my customer and price the job and sign specification to them. Normally offering a high & lower quote for different materials stating the plus & minus benefits of each quote. I admit i do offer sweetners sometimes normally something like opening times put on to a door or some spare stickers etc. These items are normally just tagged on to the cut or print or maybe from a bit of waste material so minimal cost to myself but they feel they have a better deal. My business is run entirely on recommendations and as such ensuring i know my market is why i’m still in business.

Kev

[Paul Hodges]

Hmm…there are two distinct camps here, those who aim to get the most for their work, and those who aim to be more price competitive.

Peter is of course right in that we all shop around for the best supplier prices, we all do that until we get what we want, but that’s a slightly different situation from Rob’s point regarding what you sell your goods out at. in this respect, Rob is right, we should all get as much as we can for our work…if we want to stay in business and make our efforts worth while. Shane’s point about perceivable value is correct also, we all know roughly what a job is worth, as aopposed to what our bottom line on a price is.

In my experience working in this trade, we give far too much away for free, especially artwork, design and set up charges, other types of agencies all charge much more for this type of thing than sign makers tend to do.

So in my opinion, I agree with Rob on the price issue and i strongly feel that prices could do with going up slightly to give more value to what we do. I agree also with peter’s point about staying competitive on price, we all have to do that to an extent, although i have to say that in my experience, poor quality/inexperienced people tend to fall too much into under cutting others because they have nothing else to offer against the competition, so you have to be careful not to put yourself right at the bottom. After all, your typical small signmaker in a cheap shop or unit may think it’s wise to under cut all the bigger outfits, but they can also be under cut by the man in the shed at the end of his garden with a vinyl cutter!

For anyone looking at digital print prices, trade suppliers as a general rule sell out at between 15 quid per square metre to around 30. The cheaper end is usually done on the 300 dpi machines, so you need to be sure what they are using.

[Adwiz]

hmm I think I’ll take my mimaki ando move to GB

in Poland the price is under £10 per sq mt of banner

[Peter Normington]

certainly you will,
And, I am looking forward to it Adrian.
perceptual value works both ways, some people cant understand why a bit of plastic and ink can cost so much….

Peter