Applying to a roughcast wall?

[southernandy]

Where abouts are you? Scotland?

If you are I’ve got me bags packed cos I’m relocating.

£2700 for this job!! Pheweeeeeeeeeeeee, mate, I wouldn’t get a grand for the whole thing.

Ahh, the joys of the south coast. 😕

Anyway, fitting- I would look into bonding on some threaded rods which you can use as locator type fittings. Drill the holes in the wall via a template and fill with silicone or grippy and push the signs home- this way is perfect for evening panels out on uneven surfaces as you can push/ pull until it’s level- if you go for a faster setting cartridge adhesive you can be in the van on the way home knowing that everythings gone off.

Try bighead fasteners in Bournemouth- they’ve got a shed load of different types of fixing to choose from- one of the models is perfect for this type of thing as the foot of the bolt is about 40mm in diameter and is set in a resin- easier to bond to the dibond. Cant remember the part number but I’ll have a look through the filing cabinet- meantime a google should see you right

[John Simpson]

I think i will join you Andy :lol1:

L J

[John Cornfield]

The nice thing is we have another six sites to do for the same client.

Job was a tender which we won so we ar enot wearing mask or riding horses 😀

We won the tender based on our design, price and previous work as a proven supplier.

I am interest in the resin type of installing locator rods. What do you use and where do you get it?

Cheers

John

Ps Stay down south with your cheap prices 😛

[Peter Normington]

at that price John, I think you have a cheek asking advice on how to do it, especially if you won it by tender. Did you not have to specify first?
Peter

[John Cornfield]

“cheek” is a bit strong didn’t think this was a place for that sort of comment.

Yes we put in a method, original tender was based on a sign tray to be installed for this element. We planned to use wooden battons to support the tray. This meant we did not have to worry about the number of screws with wall plugs we could use, as the they would be ultimately hidden by the tray.

On winning the tender the client has changed the spec they want.

I was just looking for alternative methods of installation and advice sorry I thought that was what this forum was about.

I very much believe if you don’t have anything constructive say its best to say nothing 😳

[Peter Normington]

The boards as I see them are for valid comments, you asked for them, I gave my honest opinion. dont want to get confrontational, 😀
Sorry if you got the wrong idea.
Hope you get the job sorted and do well.
Peter
Edit for a ps.
If you already have the job, keep the price confidential, some one will go in cheaper

[David Rowland]

John, congrats on it and would also use the same idea with wood/dibond. I just checked my price guide and you are on a very good earner :lol1:

[southernandy]

As far as the rods go;

You can either use a bog standard flat headed bolt and fix it on with epoxy glue (you might have to grind off any lettering or numbers on the surface) OR you can use the big head ones- these have a much bigger surface area so you get a better bond- worst comes to the worst you could use Gripfill- I use a special waterproof version in Clear or White- luckily I’ve got an expert glue dude round the corner- I’m told what I use is what the prison service use to stick tabletops down.

For the holes in the wall you can use resinfix- you will need a jumbo cartridge gun cos the tubes are about 3″ diameter- best place for this is screwfix. Silicone works pretty well too- it’s surprising how strong it sticks.

What is VITAL is that you blow the holes BEFORE you squirt in the gunk- if you don’t you’re bonding onto brick dust.

On the price- if you tendered for it then fair is fair- just think how much the other guys were quoting??!!!

These jobs are too far and few between but I think everyone needs something like this from time to time just to bump up the coffers- beats doing work for the tight ar$e shopkeepers who want Harvey Nicks for Happy Shopper money.

If you get anymore on the southcoast give me a shout I’ll help you out- for a price- (I know you are loaded so I’ll “adjust” my rates) 😀

[Chris Hooper]

Well done John good price for a job well done!

[Dave Bruce]

That’s too much palarva, nip to Hillington to Wurth Scotland and get some of their concrete scews. Drill hole, countersink sign and screw straight to wall, cover screw heads with circle of vinyl, job done.

Dave

[southernandy]

Wurth’s self threading masonry screws won’t work on a rough wall unless you want a nice rippled, warped finish- sorry but that’s a fact. These screws have a deep countersink which will be hard to get flush PLUS the whole point of the roughcast is that the sign is not going to sit dead flat- whacking screws through unless you pack them out will force the panel to follow the surface which ain’t flat. Try doing this on an uneven brickwall and see what a mess the panels look.

If it’s the same screws I’m thinking of then they are overkill on these light weight panels and far too big to look neat.

Another point- these are digitally printed boards so a dot of vinyl will stick out like a sore thumb.

Loose rod’s are the recognised method of fitting to rough and curved surfaces- the method has been around since the year dot.

If you’re charging nearly 3 grand for a few dibond signs surely you owe it to the customer to at least do a neat installation?

Sign fitting is all about neat and tidy- make the effort and you will get the reward 🙂 If we don’t make the effort no one will wanna pay for proper fitting cos “sign fitting looks dead easy mate”.

[Dave Bruce]

They work for me perfect you just have to know what you are doing. I have put Dibond panels up this way before, no ripples, I am about to put up 27m of 2mm Dibond facia the same way (although it is going on to marble so is flat).

You are right about the printed face though, what I would do is paint the circles to match the background.

How do you go about removing the sign next year(or whenever) if it is resined to the wall?

dave

[southernandy]

Hacksaw blade behind or plug cutter to spin through the material round the fixing head so you can remove the panel and then tackle the bolt either grind it or saw it off. O

27m of dibond screwed to anything, even marble is something I would just not get away with and to be honest I would never do it- goes against the grain to spoil any sign by banging a dirty great screw through it.

We could get into a debate about all sorts of other fixing methods like split battens with locking screws, adjustable locators, drop plates etc, etc.

If you wanna screw through the faces then fair do’s but it’s just not neat enough for me 😀 Totally hidden fixings look the best as you can’t see em at all.

[Dave Bruce]

Must be talking about differnt screws these are not dirty great screws and produce a very neat finish, much better than the usual caps I see around.

Each to their own I suppose.

Dave

It would be interesting to hear how you would fix the above sign to the marble.

[Tim Painter]

Nice one John.

If John has a history with the client then fair play to him and we probably don’t know the total detail as to the work and hours of faffing around with the client this job has taken.

Wasn’t many threads back that comments have been made on here today gone tomorrow price cutters………….

Basically we would all like a job like that every week…..so John what lottery numbers are you doing this week????……lol

Tim.

[Simon Clayton]

You could try big head fixings (think that’s what their called) bond them to the back and fix the panel as southernandy has said, will look like its floating and the grip fill or silicon will allow the panel to expand and con tract with out any warping etc

Simon

[Peter Normington]

I may be stepping on thin ice here, but here goes anyway.
John, your original tender was for trays, which initially you didnt mention.
there is a lot more labour involved with making them, so your original quote (although in my opinion high) was won fair and square, so good luck, get as much as you can. When the specs were changed to flat dibond, did you revise your quote? If the specs had changed to add an extra 500mm to the length, I am sure you would have revised upwards.
I find it dificult to reconcile both scenarios, Whoever is paying should be advised that what they now want is a cheaper option. I have no problems with you getting a very good price for the job, its just the fact that morally I think it would have been fairer to revise the price in the customers favour. Or is it only me that thinks this way?
Peter

[Robert Lambie]

Congrats on the job win john. Great earner, as has been said.
With regards to replies about your price… ide say sky high mate, way off the mark. But what the hell, if you got the job, good for you.

However, definitely do NOT use this as a pricing guide for all future work or your life in signs will be very short lived.

With regards to installation… with this mark-up I think you would be better hiring some professional fitters. I do not mean that negative…
To bluff your way into doing a job like this is one thing (not saying install & fab is hard by the way) but if you have a client that is willing to pay over the odds for this work, im sure he will have a guy coming behind you on each job to see everything is done 100% & with the correct materials. If not, you will more than probably loss the rest of the sites & your good reputation with your customer.

Di-bond is fine as a material, but for the price you have charged ide say they would be looking for aluminium folded and welded corners, powder coated, then graphics applied… forget the wood route though. If signs are external avoid wood at all costs if you can, unless completely enclosed and treated.
In place of wood use aluminium, create an Ali frame to fasten to the wall and fasten your tray/pan sign to that. If using locators of some sort use brass ones, the plastic ones are crap for this and go brittle, no use for anything other than small signs and letters.. As has been said there are other methods, each site/job will best suit one or two of them… ultimately only you can decide on which to use?

Best of luck…

[Nigel Fraser]

quote John Cornfield:

Is this priced ok also

6 1mx700mm sign attached to a fence dibond with fullcolour image to front

1 1mx700mm sign installed on roughcast wall dibond with fullcolour image to front face

£2700 installed.
John

Am I reading this right John… are you saying six signs 1000x700mm and one 1000x700mm ? or is that 61mx700mm ?
I ask because I can’t see how you could get such a price for 7 small signs 😕

Not having a go…just interested to know 😀

Nigel

[John Cornfield]

Hi,

Thanks for the comments.

Peter only one sign tray involved the main one being on roughcast. For us to router the signtray and form it the costs are not that significant an extra hour of fabrication. So the price change did not affect the estimate enough to change besides or design costs have been a little higher.

Here is our workings

Dibond Sheets 5 sheets @ £70 £350
Brackets to fix to fence 24 @ £3 £72
Wood and screews to attach 1 tray £15
Total £437
Markup x4 £1748

Digital Print to Vinyl 7 linear M’s @£45 £315
Anti Graffiti overlaminate 7lm @ £25 £175

Installation & travel 2 men 6hrs @35 £210

Design £250

Total Cost £2698

We always buy in an extra sheet on a job and charge for it something i have just always done on exhibitions. If you need to use it beacause of a mistake you are covered if not you have a free sheet in my experience it is better to have the cushion. We normally charge £35 per hour per man onsite but cut it back on this element.

I have always thought that the prices of the jobbing signmaker sold short their services and skills especially their labour.

Up our way we have some big boys and they charge royally. Rob beleive it was B&S and Merson that were the others.

I don’t appologise for my price as i know we will do a job the client is happy with just as we have done for them in the past on their display requirements.

We have 10 staff 2 designers (not cheap) 1 admin, 2 sales 4 production and me, 2 x2500sqft units, 4008 Axyz Router, 74″ grenadier, 54″ grenadier, hp5500 x2, 60″ lamintors x2, macs, pc’s vinyl plotters etc etc.

If we dont charge properly we wont be around for long and if i did not charge properly i would not be in a position to purchase the latest equipment and be able to replace it.

[Peter Normington]

quote John Cornfield:

We have 10 staff 2 designers (not cheap) 1 admin, 2 sales 4 production and me, 2 x2500sqft units, 4008 Axyz Router, 74″ grenadier, 54″ grenadier, hp5500 x2, 60″ lamintors x2, macs, pc’s vinyl plotters etc etc.

Wow, thats some set up
Pitty you dont have a good sign fitter as well, oh and a good estimator, I think 5 sheets of dibond were a bit exesive, based on the dimensions you gave, 2 would have been more than enough, with spare for mistakes
OK Im being cynical as always, but thats me.
Peter

[Robert Lambie]

being up against the likes of merson should make getting the job much easier mate. as they, with about 180 staff, much higher overheads etc have to price in at this level or they cant justify dropping big contracts to accomadate. we do this too at times… stands to reason….
however, ide say your still about a grand out i think… but thats just me i guess…
if, like you say, your up agianst these firms, ide make sure the fitting is 100%.

im confused on the amount of sheets of dibond? 5 off? ide only use 2 sheets. installation about an hour to hour and a half two men, for fitting?

[John Cornfield]

Over estimate your materials and over estimate your time is better than under estimate have you ever cut a sheet and made a mistake yeah you can squeaze the job out of less but if you make a mistake on 1 with 2 sheets you have just doubled your costs!

We all look at the cost price my other half came from the hotel game part of a big group. They value things at retail price ie bottle of vodka £12 as we would price up, no no they value it a t 50 shots at £1.50 = £75 (not real figures). So someone drops a bottle or someone nicks a bottle £12 aint much, £75 is a bigger deal and that is how they worked out there spillage on their budgets etc. Though this was crazy at first but think about it the missing bottle is lost profit. Yeah in real terms it is not a huge cost against their profit but it is ahuge cost relative to the number of bottles they consume in a period which impacts on their bottom line. The big companies dont so much obsess on what they charge market forces etc. No the big boys concentrate on their costs mainly material costs and i do the same when pricing a job by over estimating my materials.

Taking that on board this is what we do and have done for a couple of years, for accounting you need to value at cost but for budgeting do what you like.

How did Merson end up with 180 staff? Did they just open up one day? No they built a business, how? by knowing how to charge properly, being confident to do so and not selling themselves short.

I started out in graphics with an encad a second hand laminator and a coule of grand left after a first business failed (learned a few lessons wish i charged more was one). My mate on sales and me in production, admin, toilet cleaner teamaker, floor sweeper.

Definitely know it was B&S as they had done previous job, there was a hint that Merson were other supplier they were talking to.

[Robert Lambie]

again, I’m not trying to pick here john, or trying to come across smart mate.
your theory on the big companies is fine and well… but your firm is no were even close to this scale. taking on board how they do business is one thing to keep in mind, but charging in the same price range as the industry giants, and offering inferior workmanship just ain’t going to work in my opinion. merson signs like many large firms have taken their knocks over the years, they have come through and still standing tall. (in Scotland alone) look at many other big players, all going to the wall in the last year. many reasons for it… charging over the odds is just part.

on pricing alone, i just don’t agree… yes we all make the odd mistake, and covering for that is fine. but 5 sheets instead of two? 😕
we are here to make money, charge competitive if needed, but not buy in 5 sheets in case our guys are in an off day & waste 3. in turn over charge our customer for our staffs incompetency…

[John Cornfield]

No problem i like a good debate.

So when you guys started out when buying in vinyl for a job for example say you only need 3m did you buy 3 or 5? in terms of the job who paid for the extra?

I am not comparing ourselves to the likes of merson LOL we are the pube on their soap.

B&S however nothing they can do we can’t nothing quality wise that we don’t beat or match, we won our George Wimpey business on a striaght quality issue we were better more expensive. Yep they are bigger but we are catching up, to be honest do’t want to be that size £4m turnover and £40k loss the year they were bought over.

Size isnt everything, so the missus keeps telling me 😀

[Simon Clayton]

I can’t see what the problem is??? This is a prime example of how other signmakers under sell themselves, is the price too height??? the answer is no, it was still cheaper then the others companies prices, whether you have 2 staff or 2 hundred, should make no difference, if a firm with 50 staff and a big factory unit charge £1000 for a 3000mm X 500mm panatrim frame and panel, why should you only charge £500 coz you have two staff? the only differences is you earn less profit.. Don’t forget these big companies also get big discounts from suppliers and if there were only big sign firms around that is the price people would have to pay.
Which is the true price £500 or £1000?? its still the same sign…
This is why we have signmakers doing vans for £60, instead of £200.

I have sign fitters who charge me around £100 to fit a sign, so why when i fit the sign should i not charge or only charge £50?

I have found prices going down and down, most of the signs are cheap foam and vinyl screwed directly to the wall…. most signmakers say they charge around £25 per hour but its more like £5 in most cases from what I’ve seen.

A labourer digging holes or mixing cement gets £150 a day, not exactly skilled work.

You get people saying, i designed, cut, weeded and applied van graphics in 3 hours, when really it properly took nearer 6-7 hours, when i worked for a firm we had to fill in time sheets, and when you tallyed up the time it took to do a job it was a very different picture than you thought.

[Dave Bruce]

This seems to have got a few people going 🙂

I too think it is a really high quote, but if that is what John charges then that is what he charges, ( I have started to look for premises in Glasgow now).

Simon, I would agree with you on the time thing, I see people saying they just took so many minutes to do this or that, and I think I must be too slow doing my work. In reality I think it takes a lot longer than they think, I often do a time check on jobs just to keep my timeing for quotes under control, sometimes it may take 20mins longer than quoted but others are 20min shorter so I don’t think I do bad overall.

Well done John

Dave

[Martin Pearson]

John, first off thanks for starting a really interesting thread!! I do think you have moved the goal posts a couple of times but that has made it more interesting. When I first read this I thought you were a one man band like a lot of us on here, I was surprised you had actually won a job like this as most of us would never get the chance to even quote for something for a company this big. Not because we are not capable of doing the work but because a lot of these companys tend to look for bigger suppliers.
Simon makes a good point, a sign worth £500 is worth £500 so why do some of us charge £250? I think the answer is because most of our customers (well certainly mine) would only pay £250. Does that devalue me as a signmaker, well I supose in a way it does but we all set what we charge according to our needs. I work on my own so I do everything myself, I am the salesman, eatimator, production….etc, so why don’t I enploy a salesman to find the work? Well simply because if I did I would have more work than I could manage and I would be paying someone who I saw as non productive in the sence that they were only getting the work and I would need more production staff!! It’s a vicious circle but it’s how business grows. I have elected not to go down that road and work on my own, because of this I am only ever likely to be doing work for people like myself, small one man operators, local shops and smaller businesses.
I had a conversation with Robert quite a while ago where he was thinking of moving to new premises because they had lost a major tender to a rival on the basis that the customer having visited their set up was not convinced he could do the job. Robert works all over the UK for some very big businesses and would have been more than capable of carrying out this contract but the customer thought not, their choice and in my opinion their loss.
Do I think this is an expensive job? Well like most people yes I do, but if it was a tender and you won it and the customer is happy then good on you, I do think as Robert has said that you need to look at a good fitting team, I know this is not your core work but if you are going to move into this area a bit more then you do need to be doing it right or the rest of your business will suffer.

[John Cornfield]

Simon 100% if you can do the same job to the same standard why should you command a lesser price.

Martin yeah we have been talking about the installation side constantly with my number 2. We are looking for experienced sign people specifically for the installtions we recon on, 2 the way things are shaping up.

Some people like making signs and dont want to grow ending up managing and not making signs, ultimately not doing what the love day in and day you can see the enthusiasm from almost everyone on the boards “Signmakers” in every sense of the word.

I have alwyas had a problem with signage pricing mostly because the most companies come across really cheap on price and we cant compete, bit like Easyjet and BA (Rob not saying we are as big as BA we are but a molecule on their soap!!!!). I kept looking at it as a filler for our quieter times but always shighed away. Now we are going at it.

Fundamentally the price is too cheap in the signage industry yes the materials normally are marked up but the labour is way off.

Example a rollup display
Print time 20min, laminating and install to the roller cassette 20min
material cost approx £20 and the cassette£45 charge £280 = 20 min to make £215

Example popup display
Print time 60min, laminating and install of magtape and hangers 150min
material cost approx £125 and the frame £250 charge £1295 = 150mins to make £975

Mind while things are printing my guys are working on somethin else so this is not really a labour time and yes we have bigger machine costs.

Example medium van at market rate
design 1hour, cutting weeding taping 1hour, clean and wipe down van 30min install 1 person 2- 3 hours
material costs £30-£50 charge £200 – £300 = 5.5 hours to make £100

This is why we have always stayed to the display world. But market is changing and the lines between are blurring and so we find ourselves with more signage from customers that our local signage companies probably dont even miss.

Heres an experiment on your next job price as normal and then add 25% lets see if you get it.

No sure how to set a pole up mabye someone could do it under the title

“25% more did you get it ” straight yes or no

Don’t shoot me down guys would just like us all to make more money from the same work.

[Martin Pearson]

John, I don’t need to do a poll, I can tell you now that if I asked for an extra 25% I wouldn’t get it 99% of the time.
There are a lot of different factors to take into account, Location for one thing, In Fife where I am based most of the small businesses only look at price and will go with the cheapest, they don’t seem interested in quality or image just price. I do some work in Edinburgh and it’s a completely different story, quality and image are very important and price although still important plays a much smaller roll. I would imagine this to be the case through out the UK, city based businesses will always be able to charge more than rural businesses and businesses in areas of high unemployment etc.
Another factor is the type of customer you have, small businesses are quite happy to go to the guy working from home who has another job and doesn’t have things like public liability insurance etc, so they are always going to be able to do a cheaper job.
Hugh I’m not having a go at you here, you have done things the right way a respectable business run above board that you have opted to run from your home!! I am talking about the people who do it for a second income almost like a hobby so they are not to bothered what work they get but they are always going to be able to offer a cheaper price.

[Simon Clayton]

quote :

I am talking about the people who do it for a second income almost like a hobby so they are not to bothered what work they get but they are always going to be able to offer a cheaper price.

Thats the problem, which brings us on to the other thread that is running, are we shooting ourselves in the foot by helping, this type of signmaker??

Simon

[Robert Lambie]

Hi Simon
I agree with you mate, us sign makers do sell ourselves short when up against it, but in turn, it’s the cowboys that are forcing many into this downward spiral.
My replies weren’t downing John in anyway because of his asking price, if he can get double that then brilliant. At the end of the day we are in this game to make money, the more the merrier. Only last week I had my own winge about folk kicking the backside out of the digital print market before it really booms…

However, john’s initial post was asking us “how” to go about doing the job in question & asking if we thought he had priced ok?

As follows

quote :

Any pitfalls or advice on bolting a sign to a roughcast brick wall.
Same job as the fence so will be a dibond sign bolted straight on.
What is the best bolt screw method to use?
Is this priced ok also
6 1mx700mm sign attached to a fence dibond with fullcolour image to front
1 1mx700mm sign installed on roughcast wall dibond with fullcolour image to front face

£2700 installed.

We have the order so would just like to knwo if we priced ok?
Travel to job around 1hour each way planning 2 guys one day.

We have to put a 1m x700mm sign on to school fencing, the old galvinised traditional fences.
Sign is dibond and we are looking for a simple way to attache client does not want anything to be visual from the front.

Any ideas.

Cheers
John

When you read this back, yes, the price “does” sound very high for what John is quoting on.
In turn many have said so. In fact most have, if not all… in a series of replies John has justified his price in denial of what we all have said. So I guess john, why ask us in the first place mate, if you were already set in stone and believed you are more than accurate?

High priced work is a luxury we all want and try to get. Being able to quote for high profiting jobs, doesn’t necessarily mean you should! If you do not have the experience or know how to carry the job out from start to finish you should pass on it… if not, get the job but sub it to someone “who can”. Your high paying customer deserves that right from you! If you ignore fair trading by offering inferior work on the promise it being of equal standard to others quoting on same work, you are breaking the law. I know you “have” said you are giving the same high standard if not better john, but your not mate, lets face it. If you were, you wouldn’t have started the two threads asking a forum how to fit them. This is why on my initial reply I advised subbing the work. After all you should be making plenty to be able to do this comfortably.

My advice here comes from experience, not just an opinion. We have lots of high paying customers covering the UK. However, at least once/twice a year we are approached for massive contract work. Up to a million pound per year with some contracts.
Infact, we have passed work onto merson in the past… asking nothing in return. The one martin has mentioned was worth about one £million per year ongoing 5 years i think.

this year we were approached by this national firm we do allot of work for, but not all their work. we were listed in top 3 in scotland to do this “existing” customers work on a massive scale. part of it envolved us buying in allot of stock, stock we knew little about. infact, to do this right would have meant us starting a new side to our business. a side, like i said we knew little about… we bought stock of about £200,000 in and shelved till customer was ready and sent out along with our signage. we looked to have turned over more than a million per year, this was ongoing…. to cut the story short, we passed on this one too… another scottish firm got it… we are sign makers at the end of the day, yes this was a great oppertunity to expand, but we lacked knowledge/experinece and this is something a large firm smells very early on… before pulling the plug.
anyway, like i said we passed on getting involved but did speak with them explaining why, which they respected us for… that was a few months ago… today around lunch time, i was fitting 2 10×5 signs for this same firm. we sent out a few grands worth of small signs down south to one of its depots in york. and others last week… yes you guessed it… we are still doing the work in favour to the company that won the contract. why?
well each depot is telling us our signage is better made, better priced and we are pleasent to deal with. not forgetting each depots manager works on a budget!

at the end of the day, stick to what you know, dabble, if you must, in what you don’t & learn long before you get involved.

.

[John Cornfield]

Rob pricing question was an impulse thing as i was asking the install question didnt realise the interest it would generate. I only broke the price down in the hope to justify it as i did not realise we were apparently so highly priced.

The board is a resource of information which can help give an alternative method or way to avoid a common mistake which you more experienced guys have been through and learned the hard way. For us newbies the time served sigmakers experience and knowledge is invaluable thate why i asked

“Any pitfalls or advice on bolting a sign to a roughcast brick wall.”

This is an important existing customer of ours, we are charging a good price and i was being professional by seeking out any extra information i could to ensure we do the best job we can for them and for our reputation.

We have a method we are confident it will work and we will do a good job as good as anyone else. Not sure how you can say we can’t Rob? I am confident we are and can be as good as anyone if i was not i may as well shut up shop.

The only way to get experience is to do a live job and learn from the experience how to save time, better method working, better materials etc.

You can sub and sub and sub but you are not going to learn anything. We do sub when we are too busy or the job is too big for us to complete in the timescale.

If you dont do a good job you either dont get paid or you never see the client again as they feel ripped off and that is not a good business model.

Unashamedley i am business for one reason only to make money no moral, vocational, pat on the back, just pure and simply for zeros on my bank account, i am that shallow and intend doing this by building a strong business through a loyal customer base. I am not interested in the budget end of any market signage or exhibition as it will take longer to achieve my goal. I look to maximise the profit on everyjob achieving the highest price i can based on what i think the clients budget is and what i think they will feel is expensive but is worth it and that they are happy to write the cheque in the end.

quote :

at the end of the day, stick to what you know, dabble, if you must, in what you don’t & learn long before you get involved

Bad bad advice if you only stick to what you know you are not going anyhwere in life mate some other people said

“Fortune favours the bold…..”

“He who dares…..”

I will stick with their view on life.

[Chris Dowd]

Just a thought John, to squeeze that bit more out of an already huge margin, consider buying in print direct to substrate, I could buy these in for just over £45 each printed direct to substrate, where as looking at your price, they are costing you somewhere around the £120 mark plus your labour!

Hmmmmm…. would have given you another £500 profit on the job and reduced labour costs!

Chris

[David-Foster-]

I can’t believe all the stick John has been getting. Good Luck John keep up the good work. Most of you are not getting a fair price for all the work you put into a job, John does, and he gets stick.

It is about time you run all those cowboys out of town and stop helping ‘one man in his bedroom’ start ups that undercut you.

I have read these boards for 2 years now out of interest only, (not a signmaker but interested in signs) I just wanted help on plotters for an art project.

I can see the regulars on here, inbetween them, however, you can spot the fly-by-nights get rich quick merchants who buy a plotter and think they can make signs. Ask all the basic questions then, low and behold, show us your stuff has examples of their work and then they disappear off here and either give up or undercut the regular signmakers on here. I have read countless stories on here of “this guy took my design and got it made up by the guy round the corner, cheaper” I lost £100, only last week, Phil wasn’t it with the Chemist van. Once they have your design that is the key. Some of the stuff these cowboys turn out is awful to look at. Makes you cringe. A plotter and PC doesnt make you a signmaker!

A side issue to that (as it’s in the US) is Jill Welsh, what a talent! now having to work in a store, cant make it sign-making because of the cowboys.

Make a stand! Charge more for your design skill! Never miss an opportunity to shoot a cowboy down! (:)

I apologise for the rant (it’s not even my business 🙂 ) You are worth more.

Look at plumbers, joiners, electricians, solicitors, estate agents, well anyone and the rates for stuff that you turn out seems low to me.

I will now be flamed (hot) and told I don’t know what I am talking about (chat.)

[Simon Clayton]

Well put Fozzie..!! Thats what i feel as well..

Simon

[Andy Gorman]

There certainly seems to be some hostility (and sarcasm) towards John on this thread. Whatever method he uses to quote work and the prices he charges are up to him. If I could get away with that level of pricing I would do it, who wouldn’t? Who’s guilty of charging what they think they can get away with? I know I have been.

[col]

Hi all, New to this forum, I have just become interested in sign-making as I am trying to set up a business for my two sons as I am due to retire soon and sell my engineering business after 25 years.
Over those years I have been through ups and downs making money and loosing as well ( that bit hurts)
I agree with John charge as much as you think the customer can afford and never undercut the competition just to loose money, even my friendly bank manager told me to get as much as you can from your customer ( the banks do that don’t they?).
Over the 25 years I have earned from 5 pound per hour up to 1000 per hour and that customer still comes back for more.
The problem we have now is that a blue chip company we supply has started to e-auction contracts and the job goes to the lowest price after 30 Min’s of bidding.
The buyers have been told to squeeze the suppliers till they bleed then when the have no blood left hit them for damages by setting unrealistic delivery dates.
That’s why I am getting out now.( we will never compete with china)
We only have one chance in life and even though you cant take it with you I still would like to die rich.( just in case my sons don’t make it in the sign business)
The problem I have come across with small businesses is that they think they are making 30 pound per hour but don’t realize they have to include the overheads ( yearly cost of rent etc / 2000hrs every hour of the week )
I am probably rambling on a bit and trying to teach old dogs new tricks, so sorry in advance .

[Peter Normington]

I have no problem with john getting the price for the job, I dont think that is the real issue here, Although it may not be a sustainable price. Most companies are very cost concious, as are signmakers. Iam sure that no one on here would agree to pay £15 per metre for vinyl, just because the manufacturers say thats what it should cost.
The market always sets its own levels, there will always be the odd anomally though and this should be considered as a windfall and not the norm.
The real issue is that if John can get this sort of markup on all his work, why cant everyone else?
Its only my opinion, but if you go out to make extortionate charges, and then make a mediocre job (not saying John has or will do this) you will not be in business very long, and from johns own words, Quote “Unashamedley i am business for one reason only to make money no moral, vocational, pat on the back, just pure and simply for zeros on my bank account,”
Could be taken by some to infer that the quality of the work comes second.
It is equally as damaging to the industry to overcharge as it is to charge to little. And as I have said before the cost of a job has nothing to do with wearing a mask or stetson, Its all down to paying a fair price for a good job.

I think I started the debate with questioning if John should be charging this sort of price and then asking for advice on how to do it.

I stand by those comments. if you want top dollar, you should already know how to fix a few pieces of dibond to a fence or a wall.

Peter
Ducking down now!!

[Robert Lambie]

Personally, I don’t think “anyone” is slating john for what he has charged. I know my replies aren’t… He has asked our opinions and we have given them based on the job in question.
We all do, and should, make as much as we can from any job. That’s just good business.

My advice to john is on a newbie level, although experienced in promotional work, banners, pop-ups etc he is a complete “novice” to sign making, fabrication and installation. (That is not anything to be ashamed of, just mentioning it as I think some seem to be getting the wrong end of the stick here)

I watched a program a few months ago on sky, “builders from hell.”
A company like CR Smith quoted £30,000 to their customer for a conservatory.
Another similar firm quoted £28,000. Both big firms…. a smaller firm, quotes £25,000 and gets it! Job done, lovely conservatory, customer happy.
6 months later as the weather changes, the conservatory leaks, wind is getting in, door is creaking… customer calls the company to complain. Other than patch dodgy workmanship or start again, the damage is done.
The company in question has lost the customer, but “still” goes on, house after house doing the same to unsuspecting customers…

Now how do CR Smith and the other company look upon their rival?
I bet their not patting them on the back saying, who cares mate, get as much out them as possible. Forget workmanship, screw them for what you can get, that’s GOOD business!

Maybe it is, but not in my opinion!

in case we are all forgetting something here, we have multiple threads started “complaining” about the introduction of workman ship accreditation cards, BSI type approved and the like… this sort of workmanship is what gives the government ammunition for enforcing this upon us. it comes back to cowboys dragging the trade down “one way or another” in my opinion, these cards are a complete pain in the rear, its money spent unnecessary, but WILL “help, not eliminate” shoddy workmanship.

By the way, I am not saying johns firm is in anyway falling into this category, I am just using this as way of getting my point/view across on how I have replied to the info given. (Like I think others have too!)

ultimately:
Doing business without scruples, may make you money, but is NOT good business!

quote :

Rob pricing question was an impulse thing as I was asking the install question didn’t’t realise the interest it would generate. I only broke the price down in the hope to justify it as I did not realise we were apparently so highly priced.

The board is a resource of information which can help give an alternative method or way to avoid a common mistake which you more experienced guys have been through and learned the hard way. For us newbie’s the time served Sign makers experience and knowledge is invaluable that’s why I asked

“Any pitfalls or advice on bolting a sign to a roughcast brick wall.”

Couldn’t agree more john, and why not? That is just one of the reasons this site is here.
At the end of the day that is why I have replied with the answers I have given. Just my own professional, experienced opinion, nothing more. The fact I own this site is totally irrelevant, I could be talking complete crap and i am sure i do at times… Just take what you wish from my replies…

quote :

Unashamedley i am business for one reason only to make money no moral, vocational, pat on the back, just pure and simply for zeros on my bank account, i am that shallow

Quote:
at the end of the day, stick to what you know, dabble, if you must, in what you don’t & learn long before you get involved

Bad bad advice if you only stick to what you know you are not going any hwere in life mate some other people said

“Fortune favours the bold…..”

“He who dares…..”

I will stick with their view on life.

Maybe that’s just it mate, maybe I’m too professional for my own good and like to sleep at night.

At the end of the day, stick to what you know, dabble, if you must, in what you don’t & learn long before you get involved

There is an old quote from a film I watched a few years back, “colors” Robert duval and Sean penn…
Robert duval is Sean pens mentor… giving advice he tells a joke…. goes something like…

A bull and his son/calf is in a field grazing, the son says “dad, look at that heard of cows at the other end of the field. Why don’t we run down there and f**k a cow???…..”
The father says…. “NO son…. lets walk over there…. F**k them all! “

good advice i think, take your time, do the job right and eat the whole cake while others look on…

not exactly an SAS quote but a good one none the less 😉

.

[Simon Clayton]

That’s true Peter, no one would like to pay £15 per metre ( i remember when i did) but if that was the price you would have to pay it..

I’ve been doing signs for twenty years, from the biggest sign company in England/ Europe, to the small two man outfit. I’ve designed and worked on massive projects, pretamanger, fords, Bp, Kwik Fit, Threshers, and many many more, but i would still ask peoples advice (and have done) on here, new products are coming out all the time.. people have different methods of making and fixing sign, some can be very useful, some not but you don’t know.

As for quality, well some of the rubbish I’ve seen around where i live is beyond belief, but what can you do. do you start lowering your price and turning out poor quality signs, or do you lower your prices and earn far less, coz you do a quality job? Thing with me i would never let any of my work go out the door with any bubbles creases or grit under the vinyl, i would redo it. Yet i’ve worked with people that have knocked signs out in half the time but the quality was very very poor my 9 year old could do better, but they are still in business how can you compete??

Simon

[John Cornfield]

Guys i don’t feel being got at, everyone has an opinion and i am glad to here the all points of view.

Rob I agree with you that if doing a job do it properly as it will come back to haunt you. If the client is paying top price use the best materials and where reuqired pull in expert skills from outside if you are unsure.

This job gives me no cause for concern only one sign is at height the rest are ground level and all are manageable size. Just like to know if there is an alternative method to anything we do or if we can do it better.

Rob we did the John Smith pool sign and banners 3 and a half years ago they are stilll there. For the rest of you main sign was 16ft square( 2 pieces) 7metres up with 8 banners 4 at 2m long and 4 at 3.5m long some of the banners 10m up will put up some pics. Install took longer than planned, cherry picker battery ran out as only half charged when delivered and sandstone was in a bad way. We learned a lot on that job. Reported the dodgy sandstone to the council as i was concerned at some of their coving.

We got 2 other sites to do on completing the job. One banner did have to be removed from one of the other sites after 6 months it had worked itself loose it was the town hall. I had doubts about the strenght of the sandstone on the second site and suggested the banners not be installed we would not charge for production. They had their engineers double check installation while they were checking their building. Got it in writing that they were happy with the method and materials and that it would stand up the wind loading etc. My client was not upset or unhappy in any way as their own team had signed off on this one site. They removed the banner.

We dont do much for them now as the prices just started to get silly only way to deal with them was on lesser materials and we don’t work with low quality. For them it is mostly price sensitive when buying we have lost jobs for as little as a £1 difference.

[Peter Normington]

Simon, business is all about doing what you are best at and making a living, I always look for the angle, do somethng better, faster or cheaper.
Thats how our suppliers get to the top, price quality delivery.
its the same in any biz, if you cant compete, find a way to, if you cant, look at changing direction.I never moan because fred down the road does it cheaper, and if joe is charging more ,then I can will compete with him.
biz is biz.

[Hugh Potter]

what an interesting thread !

Martin…. no offence taken or asumed !

i do think that some people have been a little picky on here, i do agree that the materials quoted for were a little more than required, but if i slammed that i’d be hypocritical as i do the same thing, if i do a sign on sign 3ft x 5, i dont order half a sheet, oi order a 10×5 and keep the extra 2 3x5ft slabs as a bonus, if i need a metre of material, i HAVE to buy 5 anyway, but the customer pays for that,

I don’t think john was out on his mark-ups though, i usually x4 on the vinyl, usually less on the boards though, but overall i aim to make money,

i know i am new to the sign game in general, but i have a long background in building materials and fixing, hands on and sales, been a service engineer for 5+ years, and have what a lot of people sem to lack…. common sense !

if i cant do it i sub it, i’ve just got a job whereby i’m subbing out all the banner (printed double side) and frame work are bought in, i just have to climb up scaffolding and drill some holes to attach it, great profit for a few hours up scaffolding, two meeting i walked too, and an hour on the pc redrawing their design for the printer, so days work for £500 in me rocket,

sure every job’s not like that, but if they come, take em, i had no experience of the banners themselves, or even the fixings, but with a little mental application, a tape measure, some plans and a drill, i’ll do an ace job for em !

i also agree about the regional thing, normally i have to bring my price to what i think the customer is going to want to spend, i’m finding more frequently though, that because i can show them a design before asking for any funds, and now also previous work, that i’m getting the job on my monetary terms, sure i occasionaly don’t get the job, and have wasted a couple of hours on design, but everythings a learning curve right ?

i feel that every job, even if you’ve done it a hundred times, brings with it some new element, whether it application, fitting or design, no matter if you’ve been in business 90 years or just started up, for the long term guys n gals it has to be a bit easier cos you only need concentrate on whats new and improving your skills in that area, for us that are newer, we not only have to try and se whats new, but have to learn and apply our time to learning and becoming more competent to do what would be considered a mundane task by time served Co. thats before we can even begin to look at printing and other specialised areas, so for a long term company, i dont really see a serious new Co as being that much of a threat, sure the so called hobbyist will be a prob, but they are as much a prob to me as you ! i might not have the ame high overheads as many of you, but i do aim to someday, i fel i’m outgrowing my new workshop and i’ve not yet cut an inch of vinyl in it !!

John, i rckon people are jeleous ! you have what sounds like an impressive set-up, and have obviously worked hard to get it, you go for it ! i too want to make a good living, even if it is only to support my lass and the kids etc, but that should no way suggest that any of us would do any less of a good job, i did a truck for stupid money last week, i still regret doing it, although it has led to properly paid jobs with the same co already, but i still did the very best i could for the customer ! i feel strognly that the service you can offer will be the deciding factor in the jobs you wil earn on !

[Simon Clayton]

But who is Fred???
I don’t mind competition or people charging less. What I don’t like is people churning out crap. The customer doesn’t know the difference in materials used or a good finish until they get the job. 9 times out of 10 the customer only looks at the price, this means that I have to drop my price to compete.
Some of the signs in my area, I’d be ashamed to put my name to.
Cheap rubbish.
But then again maybe I should start being a “Fred”

Simon

[Mark Holmes]

Just to add my comments…..firstly, having spent 27 years in this game, I’ve always thought the “smaller” but no less talented sign makers out there undercharged there services. So IMHO, yep, i think the price is acceptable.

Having said this, then the comparisons to the “big boys” have to be drawn. The planning that goes into some of these smaller projects – and yes,in reality, £2700 squid is a little contract for the major players out there, is painful. Planning consent, method statements, risk assessments, H&S issues, Installation, Access, the list goes on. My take on this is simply this – if your playing along side the big lads, then do what the big lads do.

We can all undercut the big sign companies, but its usually at the expense of some shortfall, be it correct access equipment, substituting materials or correct fitting methods. We’ve all seen it – ladders when it should be a scaffolding tower, no PPE gear, no H&S training, no electrical training, Risk assessment/method statements??…….”do we really need them ??”

Yes the bigger companies ARE more expensive, Yes they can easily be undercut and chipped away at. But, what it is your actually paying for, is the service that comes with it. That’s the guy who sells it, the guys who designs it, the guy who manufactures it, the guys who manages the client, the guys who plans the installation, checks that the crews are qualified and suitably trained in all aspects of H&S.

Inevitably, what tends to happen is, the client, initially price driven opts for the lowest price – gets his a$$ well & truly kicked because :-

a) The job goes Pete Tong – deadline missed
b) A few week down the line somethings goes amiss and the smaller company cant respond in time
c) The council threaten court action because no PP is in place
d) Joe Bloggs sign fitters drops his dewalt on some old dear and hasn’t the 5m public liability in place

Horror Stories ??….I’ve seen them all. So, Mr Purchase manager, frightened to death that this will all come back on him, opts for the “safely safely” approach, more expensive, but nevertheless a safe bet. Hence the big boys get the lions share. (fact : Boots contract recently Issued – unless you had a T/o of 10m or more – you didn’t even get a look-in)

In Summary (yeah, I know – its a long winded approach), what I’m really saying is. I think you’ve done exceptionally well in winning this tender, albeit because the client probably isn’t looking beyond the price – You have to be at least as complete a service as the major sign businesses in order to keep winning this type of work and at these prices. My personal opinions are “you’ve been lucky” this time. Make sure it doesn’t come back and bite you on the a$$.

On the subject of fitting – Ali R/A fited to wall, dibond panels fitted to R/A through side returns of panel (csk screws – heads touched out) – Avoid bonding any rods/big heads any other bolts etc with 2 part resin adhesives – these typically exortherm/generate a heat and mark the faces of the panels. And, if the sign at “high level” is greater than 2m – all your access equipment needs hand rails, toe boards – staff in PPE gear (H&S Legal Requirement)

Hope this helps

Mark