A question about Avery Vinyl good & bad points please?

[Chris Wool]

yep been there done that hate the stuff, could possibly have been down to the truck wash, but other trucks same dept. different vinyl fine.

chris

[Fred McLean]

Been using Avery600/700/900 for years,no problems 😀

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Some of the pictures on that site were submitted by me.
About 2 or 3 years ago there was a problem with the adhesive on Avery A9 and some of their reflective vinyl.
They hid the problem and continued to ship out the bad vinyl to suppliers, who unknowingly sold it to sign folks who innocently assumed it was OK and used it on jobs.
At first when the problem was exposed, Avery did compensate the sign people, but later on, they just ignored us.
I was offered $14 to replace the SignGold I had put on a window and layered over bad A8.
Almost every sign shop I know personally will not use Avery.
They say the problem has been fixed, but two months ago I had a roll of reflective striping that lifted after two weeks.
Be very careful. It is nice to never have a problem, and you may not.
But when it happens it really bites you on the ass.
Love….Jill

[John Childs]

We use Avery 700 and 900 and never had a problem.

The girls here like cutting and weeding it, and the boys like fitting it. I like it because I get no complaints.

If you do a search you will find this has been discussed at length in the past.

[Stephanie Peterson]

I did some searches and such and read through some of the information. I’m even more confused now. With the Avery vinyl we get it is either a hit or a miss. It either stays on fine and the customer never complains about anything or they come back after only a couple weeks and complain.

And I am really starting to think it may be the Avery vinyls now that are causing the problems, as before it was getting blamed on the guys applying the decals. But we talked with them and they said they clean every vehicle that comes in there even if the owners have already washed it. And they really scrub the areas where they are about to apply the vinyl. So then they said it was because I used the old vinyl. Which I proceeded to say how I can know what is old if I have only been here 3 months. Not to mention I am told to use all the older vinyl and scrap pieces.

We have about 150-200 different rolls of vinyl from Avery just for our Gerber which I have only used twice in three months. Then we have like another 200-300 rolls of Avery vinyl for printing and or cutting. So now I am really concerned because how can we guarantee quality products if we have tons of old stuff from Avery that is failing. No matter what I say though I guess I do have to do what my boss says but I just don’t feel comfortable using Avery vinyl now….I guess I will just have to wait and see what others think as well. Thanks for posting how you feel on the subject Chris, Fred, Jill and John.

I think I may have to show this thread to my boss and everyone I work with after.

[Jon Marshall]

How exactly did it fall off? I don’t think I’ve seen even cheapo vinyls just fall off. Are they jet washing the vehicles or something?

[Stephanie Peterson]

No they actually barely clean the vehicles. I don’t know exactly how it went down all I was told was that after only a couple of days of driving around a couple letters had fallen off. So the guy who uses that truck came in and told us about it, a couple days later he came back because more letters had fallen off. The text was supposed to say fire flood clean-up but by the time we got it all it had 6 or so letters left on it. And it was only the red that had fallen off, as we had some blue text underneath that with the contact information and none of those letters had moved at all. They are still in almost perfect condition….

And we know they weren’t picked off because they keep all their vehicles locked up in a compound when they are not in use. And this truck always has someone in it so someone would have seen them getting picked off. So I really think it is just the vinyl…we ordered in new Avery vinyl to redo the job, I just hope it stays on this time.

[JonnyAnnett]

I’d mainly use Avery 600 and 700 series vinyl. We do a lot of vehicle work, a lot of the vans would see heavy use and abuse on a daily basis and we have had no problems with the vinyl.

I have been told about the situation a few years back but it never put me off. I’ve used the Avery stuff, its been good for me and many others. If the stuff was crap why would they still be trading in it? Surely someone would catch on if it was bad.

From your description of the letters falling off, as you put it, I get the feeling there has been something incorrectly done with the application of the vinyl. I normally would run some heat over the vinyl after application, especially on cold days, more to heat the panel and get a really good bound between the vinyl and the panel, thats the way I was taught to do it and I’ve never had a problem.

[Stephanie Peterson]

See if we had a new guy I would say it was probably not put on properly but the guys who did apply the vinyl have been doing it for quite some time now. The one guy has been doing this for over 12 years. And there is only a problem once in a while, not all the time. I’m not saying Avery vinyl is bad I’m just saying that I think it might be the vinyl that was at fault this time.

We used "older" vinyl as that was all we had left of that color so I’m assuming that was the problem. Because if the guys had done the application wrong wouldn’t all the other vinyl fall of that truck as well. It was only that line on both sides of the truck that fell off. Not the stuff 1 inch below it and not the stuff on the back or above the red. They were different colors but they were all Avery vinyls.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Red and black A8 were the worst failures.
It looks like the adhesive sticks to the surface but the vinyl pulls away, leaving a "ghost"…up to ½" in some instances for me.

This problem has been well documented on various North American sign forums since about 2005. It truly was the vinyl, no matter the application.

Love….Jill

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Jillbeans:

Red and black A8 were the worst failures.
It looks like the adhesive sticks to the surface but the vinyl pulls away, leaving a “ghost”…up to ½” in some instances for me.

jill ive seen you discuss the problem on the letterheads….but ive just thought…would the intense heat in america day in day out, be the reason that happens, as the heat usually makes it shrink…just a thought im probably completly wrong but one of those niggly ones i had to ask 😉

nik

[Duncan Wilkie]

Thankfully, we haven’t had much problem, but we have had 2 documented cases where Avery A8 yellow has failed badly. One on a trailer and one indoors on an office wall so climatic conditions weren’t the sole cause. Shrinkage was dramatic in both cases. We don’t do a lot of vehicles, where that problem becomes very obvious. There may be other failures out there that we aren’t aware of and the customer hasn’t noticed the problem.
My understanding is that the problem was mainly with the A8 high performance vinyl which they’re completely discontinued. They call the high performance vinyl A9 now. Personally I don’t trust the stuff anymore. We use Arlon and 3M now.
Check all your rolls. The shrinkage is often visible on the raw vinyl.

[John Childs]

I think that, for whatever reason, there have been occasional failures with every make of vinyl. I had a monumental one with 3M, a make that others seem to hold in such high regard.

However, I do notice that the reports of serious Avery failure seem come from the other side of the Atlantic, and I wonder if there is a difference between the Avery material sold in the US/Canada and that manufactured in Europe.

[RobStone]

I understand that Avery films sold in the USA/Canada are different from Avery vinyl sold in Europe. The face films, adhesive and liners are all different. Avery have factories in the Netherlands that manufacture for Europe. There may be the odd (reflective?) product that is brought in from the USA. If you have any concerns, your supplier should be able to tell you where the product is made – and if the full roll length is 45.7 metres/ 50 yards, it’s a bit of a give-away!

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Nik, it’s 11° this morning, so much for intense heat.
:lol1:
Love….Jill

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Jillbeans:

Nik, it’s 11° this morning, so much for intense heat.
:lol1:
Love….Jill

:lol1: :lol1: you know what i mean 😀

nik

[Shane Drew]

I’ve had Avery ‘fall off’ here too, a few years ago now. I signed a Brand new Motorhome at the factory, and they drove 1000klm to Sydney and halfway down they rang me to tell me the tape was flapping in the breeze. By the time they arrived in Sydney nothing was left on the vehicle. As a result, I rarely use the stuff now. I like the way it goes on, but I have nighmares that it will fall off again.

I’m happy to stay with 3M and Oracal for the most part, but I do have two fleets that use Avery900 (A9 in the USA) red and black exclusively, and I must admit I’ve not had a failure in the last 2 years.

Its not out of the question that the Avery material was withdrawn from sale in the states was sent to smaller markets like Canada and Australia.

Multi Nationals do this all the time. 3M did it with their ‘E’ film in the late 90’s…. it was failing all over the states, so they sent it to Oz, thinking the warmer weather might solve the problem. Unfortunately it made it worse, and they pulled it from resale. Not before I made two pretty large warranty claims, and changed the material to a cast at 3M’s expense.

[Shane Drew]

😳 double post, sorry. Its nearly midnight…. I better go home 😉

[Stephanie Peterson]

Well I looked at the tags on some of the vinyls and the red I used for the trucks were labeled A8 not A9 like the newer ones. So I think I will just let my boss know that we have some old vinyl and that we should probably not use it. Unless we want to replace it later. Thanks everyone for your comments.

[John Childs]

quote Stephanie Peterson:

Well I looked at the tags on some of the vinyls and the red I used for the trucks were labeled A8 not A9 like the newer ones..

Check the specs Stephanie.

I don’t know but I would suspect that the A8 is the equivalent of our 800 series and the A9 our 900 series.

So it’s not that one is older than the other, they are just different types of material.

We don’t use much 800 series, but I have no hesitation in doing so when required.

[Stephanie Peterson]

I did check the specs, and that is why I’m saying they are old. The reds we used are from 2004.

But I believe you are right that A8 is your 800 series and the A9 is your 900 series. We just always get A9 now.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

2004 was the "bad" year, Stephanie.
I would pitch them.
Burn them on a sacrificial fire.
It would be cheaper in the long run than having to re-do jobs.
Like Duncan says, look at the edges of the rolls. Are they sticky? Rolling back off the liner paper?
I used to love Avery, the price, the colors, the way it cut and weeded.
But I was burned three times, the last one only two months ago
(old stock from a supplier)
Love….Jill

[Lynn Normington]

we have used lots of avery over the years the only one we had a prob with was about 4/5 years ago and it was yellow reflective spandex our supplier replaced it with a higher spec no problems.

Lynn

[Stephanie Peterson]

Yeah I took a look at some other ones and they are rolling of the backing paper. I think the sacrificial fire is the best idea I have heard thus far for getting rid of them. I am just not going to touch any of the old stuff until the boss and I have a sit down and talk about what to do with it all. What a waste….I wish there was something we could do with it all….

[Robert Lambie]

quote Stephanie Peterson:

I wish there was something we could do with it all….

i would approach avery first. submit your case, show them all the faulty rolls and simply ask them for an exchange. if you bought this from your suppliers and can proove it, they cannot ignore the faulty goods "still on the roll". if you have that much vinyl in stock i doubt they will want to loose you as a customer.

anything you maybe left after that, like roll-ends etc, i would sell it on ebay. but stating it is a bad batch of vinyl. i think you will be surprised how many boy racer type sticker suppliers out there will jump at buying it.

the thing is, you cannot afford to keep any… if it is used on a big job or for a big customer, it may cost you so much more if it fails.

best of luck…

.

[Jill Marie Welsh]

If it’s kosher to post a link to the 2004 Avery topic in Letterville, here it is:
http://www.letterhead.com/ubb-cgi/ultim … 31753.html?
Some people were compensated, others were not.
I was able to get an Avery claim form emailed to me from my one supplier, and was compensated with replacement (not Avery) vinyl for my first failure (A8 red and black)
As mentioned earlier, I got a $14 and change credit for a failed SignGold over black A9, where the Avery shrank but the SignGold did not. My roll of SignGold alone was $99.
This last batch, I didn’t even bother putting in a claim.
They never compensate for the time it takes to remove their crap vinyl.
I wouldn’t try to sell it on eBay, even to my worst enemy.
Avery is aware of the problem but it may be too late to file a claim.
And you probably shouldn’t be using 3-year old vinyl regardless of the make.
Love….Jill

[Robert Lambie]

quote Jillbeans:

If it’s kosher to post a link to the 2004 Avery topic in Letterville?

Letterville is fine by me Jill… 😀

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Thanks Rob.
I am only trying to show how this problem affected many sign makers in North America.
😉
Love….Jill

[Robert Lambie]

not a problem, totally agree with you…
i remember following the thread on letterheads when it was happening back then.

[Duncan Wilkie]

Rob is absolutely right.

Approach your Avery distributor. Avery acknowledges the defect but has officially stayed at arms length. All claims to my knowledge are filed with their distributors. Avery will make good to the distributor. If the vinyl is truly at fault, you should get some compensation. There’s certainly no way you should have to chuck out bad stock at your expense.

I’ve heard various stories. Some folks seem to get better results than others. Personally I haven’t made a claim. I noticed the failure on the vehicle when the customer was paying me to remove all the graphics, as he no longer needed them. the other case with the interior job was a 15 minute fix for me and it gave me a chance to show that customer that we guarantee our work. If it fails, we fix it.

At the risk of sounding preachy, this is my philosophy on the way to handle your problem. I’m sure others have handled it differently and have had success.

A good rule of thumb is to be calm and not adversarial when you contact them. Try to stick to (pun intended) your issues, not what you perceive to be a vinyl pandemic.
Someone that phones me with a legitimate issue and shows me respect gets my attention and some kind of action, even if it’s a borderline issue. I have little or no patience with jackasses or abusive persons and I tell them so. If they "calm down", they will have my ear, if not, there’s nothing I can do for them till they do.
When you hit someone with a problem, often they need some time to think it through and possibly discuss it with their people. I would probably tell them to consider my concerns and call me back the next day to discuss what can be done.
If I didn’t hear from them in a timely fashion, I’d write a letter outlining the problem to the branch manager and cc Avery. Indicate your disappointment that nothing has been done.
If this gets no reaction, in all honesty, it’s probably going to be pretty much a waste of time to go further. Notify them in writing out lining your feeling and that they no longer have your business and cc Avery and The Better Business Bureau or equivalent agency in your area. If the company has any sense at all, this will probably prompt a response at which time you can write another letter cc’d as above retracting your previous letter and indicating that you are now satisfied.

This problem with the vinyl is very well documented amongst several online boards I frequent. If you can show losses resulting from it, you deserve satisfaction and by all accounts will get some.

Holly Cwap, that was preachy 😳 My intentions are good, and I recognize there are other ways to handle the situation. Either way you should take some action, in my opinion. You have little to lose.

[John Childs]

quote Duncan Wilkie:

Holly Cwap, that was preachy 😳

Not really Duncan.

A good post and something we would all do well to remember because it can be very easy to forget in the heat of the moment.

[Jason Xuereb]

Never had a problem here. For that matter haven’t ever had a problem with substrates besides a roll of faulty canvas once.

[Stephanie Peterson]

Thanks for the advice Rob, Jill and Duncan.

I looked over the Letterhead forum about the Avery failures and I was quite surprised at how many people it was effecting and how many people denied it was happening. But anyway I will talk to my boss about seeing if Avery will compensate for the vinyl but I highly doubt they will as it is very old.

Speaking of old vinyl how long should we keep it on our shelves??? When I started I was told that we keep it until it gets all used up….but I don’t think that is right. The oldest vinyl I could find was from 2000. But the problem is how can I tell how old vinyl is that is not labeled?? Is there a certain way to tell that it is older then a couple of years???

Duncan I also didn’t think your post was "preachy" I thought it was good advice. And don’t worry I will be calm, I’m not one of those to flip out. I’m actually more of the opposite I tend to just keep quiet and keep my complaints to myself but it is just not fair to the customers to give them faulty old vinyl. But I will tell the people I work with all of your suggestion as of what to do and figure out what would be the best course of action.

[Shane Drew]

quote Stephanie Peterson:

Speaking of old vinyl how long should we keep it on our shelves??? When I started I was told that we keep it until it gets all used up….but I don’t think that is right. The oldest vinyl I could find was from 2000. But the problem is how can I tell how old vinyl is that is not labeled?? Is there a certain way to tell that it is older then a couple of years???

I think you’ll find the shelf life from that manufacturers is 2 years, so Avery will more than likely refute the claim.

I don’t carry a lot of stock to avoid this happening, but if I get caught, I’ll just put it aside for those signs that only need to last a week or so.

Only thing I can’t reconcile, is the warranty is 2 years from the purchase date, but you never know how long its been on the suppliers shelves before that. That said, most of our suppliers here have ‘stock run out sales’ or ‘end of financial year’ sales. Thats the opportunity they take to get rid of their stock that has been on the shelves longest, and usually coincides with poor or slow moving lines.

Hope that is of some help.

[Lynn Normington]

I find that quite strange shelf life 2 years actual life depending on the vinyl 2/3yrs, 5/7yrs, 10/12yrs 🙄

Lynn

[Shane Drew]

quote Lynn:

I find that quite strange shelf life 2 years actual life depending on the vinyl 2/3yrs, 5/7yrs, 10/12yrs 🙄

Lynn

I think you’ll find it is related to the life of the silicon backing, which affects the adhesive of the face stock..

check it out here A700 & A900 are the same shelf life…..

http://www.stickerart.com.au/pages/aver … m_film.pdf

http://www.spandex.com/au/Links/Sign%20 … 20Film.pdf

http://www.spandex.com/au/Links/Sign%20 … 20Cast.pdf

Definitely only 2 years though…

[Stephanie Peterson]

Thanks for posting the links and information on how long vinyl should be kept Shane. It helped a lot thanks.

[Robert Lambie]

interesting that this thread has been read nearly 600 times in 5 days. 😀

[Shane Drew]

quote Stephanie Peterson:

Thanks for posting the links and information on how long vinyl should be kept Shane. It helped a lot thanks.

No problems Stephanie. I’ve been down this path with 3M in the past. They used the 2 year shelf life line to refute a claim I had at the time, but I could easily prove them wrong by producing my receipt from the wholesaler.

That’s also the main reason why all the major manufacturers have a batch number on the stock now too. It pays to note the batch number on your paperwork when you do a job (not that I often remember to do it) as it makes a claim easier for you and your client.

That said, 3M will deny a claim if they find you’ve used soapy water to fit the graphics. I imagine Avery will too, if they get the chance. Another good argument for fitting dry … eh Rob..

[John Childs]

quote Shane Drew:

It pays to note the batch number on your paperwork when you do a job (not that I often remember to do it) as it makes a claim easier for you and your client.

We don’t go that far, but when we receive a delivery we always write the date inside the roll.

That makes keeping track of old stock easy, and gives us a bit of traceability back to the individual supplier and avoids the embarrassment of complaining to one about vinyl we bought from another.

[perfectg]

Been using Avery vinyl for years and never had a job come back. I use lots of t1500 reflective and loads of A6 vinyls.