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Help – What sign should I install & how
One of our neighbouring shops signs has disappeared in the recent stormy weather we’ve had. The entire thing as you can see from the photos. The timber is clearly rotten.
I know that some kind of frame needs to be re-built along the bottom, as there’s the remains of some ply wood left, with some steel brackets holding it to the wall.
Ideally the customer doesn’t just want a flat sheet screwing to the frame, and we have discussed sign trays, and fitting a frame.
Trouble is that there is gas pip running right in front of the location, so that rules out a sign tray. A sign frame will be problematic, as the empty shop next door has a CCTV camera, and PayZone sign sticking out.
I am just after opinions as to how is best to install this sign, and suggestions of suppliers for the frame – ideally pre-made.
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23 Replies
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I wouldn’t build out with a tray, I reckon that if it’s too tricky to do that then get a good chippy to sort out all the wooden facia, I’d say from the looks of it that the original shop front is the bit in the recess and the roller shutter / canopy thing has been built out, get the chippy to build it all in nicely and put either a tray or flat panels in the recess, a reverse tray!
either that or get the said chippy to repair and build a frame, have it protrude enough to fix a tray to it.
the only other way I see is to hacksaw thru the gas pipe and hope no-one notices – ok, don’t do that but maybe get the gas pipe diverted? stupid place for one!
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Re-locating the gas pipe will be problematic as it feeds the residential property above.
I am hand enough to knock up a decent wooden frame. It’s completely hollow behind, same as all the other shops on the row.
It looks like the sign was in place and then the gas pip was fitted around that.
So the sign needs to come out the gas pipe which will make fitting a sign tray ‘difficult’, without taking down the neighbouring (empty) shop’s camera and crappy signs, and try slide it onto the frame.
I’m open to ideas.
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I’d over price it!
Looks like a lot of hard work to make the facia solid enough to put a sign up and the client will never understand the cost of your time to make good the frame you never see once the signs up.
By over price I mean make sure you add in all the hours to build the frame and make the sign as well, don’t undersell your time.
As you’ve got a problem with the gas pipe and the camera next door I’d have your tray sign as wide as the shop front up to the left hand side of the pipe. Then on the right hand side of the pipe have a dibond "blank insert" that runs under the pipe and under the tray sign by about 10cm.
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Getting prices in for a chippie to make good the woodwork behind. So that will be a fixed cost + markup.
Thinking about it and speaking with my tray manufacturer. I will get the tray made, but not have the fold on the end where the pipe is so it will be possible to slide it along the frame. Screwed along top and bottom full length.
The end will be hidden, or a blank put on to hide the timber. The customer had a flat panel sign and it blew down. I’ve shown him a folded tray, and how rigid it is compared to a flat panel.
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David
can you not add an additional 50mm timber to bring the frame out flush or just past the pipe then recess the returns of the tray to go around the pipe. This will improve the appearance & probably win you some brownie points with the customer for giving him a better looking sign. If a sign frame will fit behind the pipe then just make the panels front loading insert the panel that goes behind the pipe first, slide behind pipe then insert second panel but ensure you have the rebates machined to allow you to do the right panel firstKev
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thats a tricky one indeed…. a tray shaped and carpenter on the job.
Now this gas, suppling the upstairs… bet this is unsafe passage, but im not Gas Safe expert.
Dave
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quote Dave Rowland:thats a tricky one indeed…. a tray shaped and carpenter on the job.
Now this gas, suppling the upstairs… bet this is unsafe passage, but im not Gas Safe expert.
Dave
Dave
standard practice in my neck of the woods, even Transco who fit supplies for British Gas do it this wayKev
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That’s also another option.
The signs 4700 x 800, so depending on the sheet size the tray manufacturer uses might make having larger returns more expensive but will certainly price that up.
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One thing that hasn’t been mentioned yet is the flashing or felt along the top.
Don’t forget that, you don’t any problems with water.As for the gas pipe, seen better / seen worse seems to be standard practice with older places being worse.
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I am letting the chippie worry about the flashing.
Hopefully we will be able to build the frame out without having to move that.
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To safeguard yourself from future storm wreckage I’d say that was a job for a joiner. I’d get the client to have a joiner strengthen the existing fascia (what’s left of it) and build it out as Kevin says, as a separate job. The joiner should liaise with you to make sure it’s all going to work out for you to fit directly to. Then bill separately for the sign work. There may not be too much extra cost as although the joinery work will cost, there will be less work for you to do when erecting. The trouble I’ve found in the past with doing it all yourself as part of the sign erecting process, is that the client will not appreciate the additional structural work and consider your services over priced. If you try to help him out and save him money by doing a quick bodge then when the next storm takes it down you’ll cop for a shoddy job and be expected to replace at your own cost. It needs to be done properly – the whole thing looks a bit Heath Robinson – probably been patched up a dozen times before and could do with sorting out anyhow.
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You’d have thought they would divert the pipe off to the side just for their own aesthetic satisfaction.
I’d consider fitting the sign in 2 parts, the short one should fit in without moving the camera, and have the join behind the pipe.
Also get the shop keeper/owner to pay the chippy direct then it’s not your problem and they will not feel like your expensive.Steve
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Luckily we have a chippie in doing some work on wednesday on the renovations for the building. So he’s got 1/2 day spare then. He’s charging labour only at a reasonable rate, and has given me a list of materials, as I am VAT registered so can reclaim it.
Going with the plan to build the frame out, in front of the pipe and then install directly to it.
Makes my life easier and will look better.Just need to get our quote approved and deposit in time for wednesday.
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quote David Hammond:Trouble is that there is gas pip running right in front of the location, so that rules out a sign tray. A sign frame will be problematic, as the empty shop next door has a CCTV camera, and PayZone sign sticking out.Without a doubt the whole thing needs sorting out before any kind of sign can go up.
But if you had a good enough fix I would have put a tray over the gas pipe just cutting slots in the tray where the pipe is. The last 2 I have fitted I have had to go over obsatcles, hence adapting the tray. You just need deep enough returns to clear the pipes etc.
Also you can still use a panel and frame sign regardless of the cameras etc next door. As long as the panel has a hanging rail and cut to the correct sign you can lift and drop the panel in. No need to slide it in from the side.
may help some for this or future jobs.
Martin
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quote Kevin Flowers:quote Dave Rowland:thats a tricky one indeed…. a tray shaped and carpenter on the job.Now this gas, suppling the upstairs… bet this is unsafe passage, but im not Gas Safe expert.
Dave
Dave
standard practice in my neck of the woods, even Transco who fit supplies for British Gas do it this wayKev
My first instincts when i saw this is "bring this pipe to the attention of the customer" its got to be a hazard!
Having read your reply kev, you have thrown doubt on my thoughts now.
however, obviously i can be wrong here but story goes…a few years ago i paid a guy to dig and lay slabs at my house.
he hits a gas main pipe with a pick, and instantly the place is engulfed in the smell of gas.
4 Transco vans and god knows many Transco staff where on site very quickly.
after some hours, i get a chap at the door by two Transco officials with clipboards and all sorts wanting to talk to me.
I was told the place was now safe, but i had to go over it all with them.
showing me the hole dug. the "section of ruptured pipe held in his hand" and various other things, he says, "your guy did this with his pick axe"… so as you ca see this has been a bit of a full scale operation to correct. can you sign here and we will be in touch with further proceedings on costs and s on…
I told the guy, "i am a sign maker mate" not a gas man… part of my job includes erecting sign posts. now my VERY limited knowledge on Gas pipe work is that they should be something like…
a minimum of 24 inches below the ground, a "coloured" polythene sheet followed by a layer of sand, "then" the pipe….
what i am looking at is a blue thick nylon gas pipe about 12 inches below surface of ground and thats it! now unless you are going to tell me that everyone and their granny have to now use a CAT scan before digging their garden, i think you should forget me signing anything.
i have never heard a things since then….now back to this, for there to be a completely exposed GAS pipe produding from a building in this fashion, i would be amazed if this would be allowed.
as i said, i could be wrong guys… Im also in Scotland, not England, so laws may differ. but all it takes is something to damage that in installation and you have a potential health hazard.
more to the point, what if the sign that was blown down hit it and ruptured it?
even if all is allowed in this fashion, for it to be plainly painted black and not a colour indicating its content must be wrong.
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Customer has mentioned about getting the pipe moved.
My response was I am a sign maker, not a gas engineer. Ring British gas or your provider and ask them.
The customer speaks broken English so it’s quite difficult to get accross what I mean.
I can either try and explain that the gas pipe is hazard, and should be removed now whilst it is convenient.
Or leave it as it is, and has been, and work around it.
I might contact british gas Monday myself and enquire.
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UPDATE:
Job is completed just this afternoon.
My first sign tray, and it went up ok… a few issues but we resolved them.
The designs nothing exciting customer just wanted the same as he had previously.
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David
good to see you got it done & posting the finished result its nice to see a conclusion to the thread. Going over the pipe was the simplest solution & as they say simplest is normally the the easiestKev
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Its one of the best looking signs along our row of shops.
My joiner made the framework up, and I ordered a tray to fit, from a new local supplier who’d called in on spec last week.
Need to allow even more extra on the width because of the rivets on the corners.
Its given me a boost of confidence and I’ve got photos for each stage from beginning to end!
Customer won’t see it till tomorrow when he opens.
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David
just cross cut the corners or rebate the wood this will then allow room for the angle and rivets. If you allow extra on the tray you won’t be able to do the fixings up tight without distorting the trayKev
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The frame was solid, and with space being too tight to get a saw of anything in to cut a rebate I drilled out the rivets on one side, then screwed through the holes into the frame.
Not ideal but a lesson learnt. Even with my oversight installation was less than an hour.
I’ll certainly be trying to sell some more trays!
I’ll post some photo’s in the portfolio section when I get chance. I’m really chuffed with it.
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Did you put a plate between both the trays where they join so the wind can’t blow them out from the middle?
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Yes Jason the trays slotted together like tongue and grove.
I think other trays won’t be so problematic as this one. If it was fitted straight to a wall, it would just need a length of angle top and bottom. Because of there was nothing left of the old sign, I had to get a complete frame built.
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