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Your opinions on basic sign fitting setup. ie Ladder/Towers
Looking to expand our business into signs & vehicle graphics and would welcome any suggestion on good kit and kit that are a waste of money. I have Phils book on my list and Impact template’s. We are looking to be producing basic signs shop facias, factory units, vehicle’s but not wraps just yet but would love to get good enough to be able to produce a good vehicles wrap when I get my van in a couple of months. (perhaps wrap the next one in a couple of years!) So have seen Robs tool box kit for vehicle graphics but need to get an idea of the best sort of platforms ladders towers cherry pickers what needed and whats not.
Any good advice welcome.
Colin
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49 Replies
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Coin, consider the purchase of a good quality scaffold tower as the piece of kit that will make installing shop/factory signs a lot easier, you cannot work for prolonged periods off a ladder and you only have one hand free. With a scaffold tower it is much easier to get frames up and the sign itself, if the scaffold tower is of good quality it will have outriggers, which give you another level of confidence when working at heights. There are lots of other tools which make the install easier, battery powered drill / jigsaw . A couple of work horses used with a piece of 8 x 4 for on site bench. I also use a large trailer which can cope with large items, frames / sign boards and the like. which is used on larger jobs. A roof rack for the van is a must. I could go on, but the genral idea as you go along you will find things you need, and I am sure you will buy a few things you use once and then never again, steep learning curve, thats part of the challenge /fun of being in this biz, all the best Graham
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This is my own preference but honestly cant go wrong… buy a decent set though, some lightweight crap ones doing the rounds as well as wooden alternatives etc
10ft high a aluminum trestle/ladders with 2ft wide wood plank + aluminum cat walk.
you can get them with a clip on barrier for one side if you want to be very H&S conscious.
along with the above, its "handy" to have a 16-20ft two tier set of ladders but "not" actually for working from as such.
i have tried many variations and cannot see by the setup above, in all the years i have done signage.
these trestle’s will do everything from the largest artic truck graphics, to 95% of shop front signage.if you need to go higher than that, i hire in a cherry picker. the job in hand dictates the type i use,
i have done the whole scaffold tower etc… owned a few over the years and they just dont cut it for me.
the only reason i mentioned having a ladder is sometimes you have to access areas high up when surveying work. sometimes the odd screw needs put in just out of reach etc i very seldom use them, got to be 1 in 100 jobs i do i need a ladder for a few minutes. but handy to have in the off chance.
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Thanks Graham & Rob that’s the sort of things I need to know to get a better idea of set up costs and try and budget properly.
Also workshop tools that are a must. ie. Routers saws general costly items you always forget to budget for.
Any more ideas more than welcome.
Colin
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i lettered one of these the other day for a hire co.
as far as fitting signs i know nothing so i ring my mate he fits them he has the height ticket thing and all the tools.
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wow Chris impressive but not quite in my price range just yet.
Colin
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nice bit of kit Chris, but you would need two to do a shop front,
I dont like towers as they need moving ever 6 or 8 foot.
trestles like Rob says are more versatile, but i find a mobile scissor lift the best option. for general purpose work.
main reason, you dont have to keep climbing up and down.I have another option that works, but h&s dont like it….
Peter
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Trestles were one of the first things I bought 25 years ago and I still have them now!
I would say you don’t need everything on the list to get started.
I find that buying a tool or piece of equipment when you actually need it is a better idea, obviously there are some that you’ll need straight away.
A few basics though should see you on your way and you’ve probably got some of these anyway, Router, Circular Saw, Jigsaw, basic woodworking tools and spanners etc.
One of my more recent purchases was a mig welder which although I don’t use a great deal comes in very handy on some jobs.
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my most recent, purchase is a fein multitool, mighty piece of kit, especially for fitting, gets you out of most problems you’ll come across.
the best tool i own is a festool composite router, paid for itself in the first week, 8 years later i still flys through work. allows the fabrication of dibond etc on site , easily, ass well as in the workshop
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wow.. impressed by that… who’s gonna find out what that costs
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quote Dave Rowland:wow.. impressed by that… who’s gonna find out what that costs
As they say if you have to ask how much it is, you probably A/ can’t afford it
B/ it would just depress you. but dave i am sure we could knock one up over a weekend, one old camping trailer, one old ladder, telescopic clothes poles, a bit of sash cord , how hard can it be ! -
quote Graham Shand:dave i am sure we could knock one up over a weekend, one old camping trailer, one old ladder, telescopic clothes poles, a bit of sash cord , how hard can it be !🙄 You forgot the dohickey….it needs a dohickey. 😀
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Neil,
Thanks as mentioned by others sounds like trestles & ladders are no.1 on the list seems to make perfect sense.
Ian
A mate of mine is a carpenter and swears by Festol and has talked me into going over to his place with a range of sign making substrates to test so sounds like no.2 on the list.
play nicely guys
Colin
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I think the Monkey Tower costs about £3600 or more (quote from last year).
You might want to look into PASMA and IPAF training for doing installations.
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I would think the extent of what you buy would greatly depend on how much you were intending on using it.
It’s very unusual that I fit signs now, but a lot of stuff can be done quickly and easily off a decent set of ladders.
I either sub fitting out to a friend who has everything you could ever need, or we do the job together, split the money up but use his stuff and everyone’s happy.
Unless you’re going into this in a big way, this is the cheapest and easiest route, otherwise you’ll have to store the stuff and make sure you have a vehicle that can move it all.
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no disrespect meant mate, but that monkey tower looks a nightmare to work with. i have used many cherry pickers similar to that but with "less manual" operated sections and even they were slow and annoying to work with. every time i have arrived on a job and saw the old manual legs on a towable cherry picker i end up in the office ranting to the depot managers that’s not what i ordered. seriously slows down installation on signs any longer than the machine itself…
ive even had a brand spanking new one, genie lift, arrive and two hours into a job one of the out rigger legs snapped and the whole thing nearly went over.
no it wasn’t really anything to do with "that sort" of machine, just the fact it happened to be the same manual operated ones that added fuel to the fire, so to speak. :lol1:do not get me wrong, they still do the job well enough…
but just never feel as safe as a proper cherry picker, due to being built more lightweight to aid towing, physically pulling and so on…
you have to tow it to the job.
on site you have to physically drag it back and forward.
every time you have to move it even a foot, you have to wind in the legs, wind down again and "get level" again and so on… the fact that the hoist is manual on that too… well… :lol1:i am not knocking the concept of these things, and i realise you don’t have a need for much more mate. i personally just don’t like manual operated hoists as they are such a hindrance to work with.
bob, how can you lift a sign, tools etc up a ladder and fit all at once mate. you need both hands, in fact, some case a third hand would be helpful when fitted from a ladder. legally you must have 3 points of contact with the ladder to be deemed safe. one hand, two feet. 😕
unless you have a p[roper foot stop, or ladder out rigger supports, you also should use a a second person at the bottom of the ladder if at any sort of hieght. yes im preaching H&S stuff.,, yes i know in the real world its up and down and off home… just being realistoic though if a ladder was used to fit a fascia or large vehicle graphics, ide say they are pretty much useless.
subbing, halving all your installs is not the cheapest method. if you have three installation per week. that’s pretty much going to pay for your tresstles setup in the first week. all money then on is now yours because you are now able to do it yourself. which is got to be the way forward.storing these can be done in the van. its where i keep mine if not in the workshop. i have a mid wheel base sprinter. i use these so often there is no point taking them out my van.
Colin is trying to expand his business here. adding a vehicle, trestles, tools, can all be done without the need for a unit/workshop.week one could pay for his access equipment, he now owns and can use on all sorts of jobs.
"instead of paying" one installation fee from a fitter per week, would pay his van lease/purchase per week. he now has a van for all sorts of things from site surveys, installations, deliveries, pickups… as well as getting from a-b in evenings and weekends. -
i can see it’s weaker side with the speed of assembly and lift, we also hire the trailer lifts for jobs that need them, so i didn’t see it much different to that except the manual work.
it was interesting to see it is able to be used via doorways, thought that was a plus side to it.
I thought it was an excellent idea, great innovation but might not be worth buying if u can hire something that suits your needs.
But one thing we have learnt, we now know that there is a manual product out there as an alternative to the motorised ones.
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Monkey tower is a bit pricey and restrictive for my needs.
Rob makes a good point regarding having your own equipment and a lot is compatible with our current business and I am not sure about sub contracting as would hate to loose one of my clients due to someone else. (bit of a control freak)
It’s been interesting to hear all your coments.
Thanks
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quote Robert Lambie:bob, how can you lift a sign, tools etc up a ladder and fit all at once mate. you need both hands, in fact, some case a third hand would be helpful when fitted from a ladder.
I don’t understand, I’ve fitted literally hundreds off of ladders, on to brick and wood. Why do you not have both hands free when you’re on a ladder? Despite what you’re told by Health and safety, I do nothing I personally consider I’m incapable of doing.
It’s easy to fit Panatrim profiles and foam/composite signs quite easily off ladders. I didn’t say I done it on my own either, but two people who know what they’re doing can fit an average shop fascia in the time it’d take to set the towers up.
I’ve done site work with a blind company I used to do a lot of stuff with, all the dutch blinds, both folding and fixed were done off ladder.
If you honestly don’t know, I’ll post how you do it….
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Well.
no disrespect to anyone, but if you are starting a business, you may have to bend the rules a bit
I am not bragging about this, but it is not that difficult to fit an 8 x 4 sign 20 ft up on a wall single handed just using ladders. done it many times, and still here.
I would not reccomend it, unless you are confident,
I do not fear heights, but it makes you more careful if you fear falling.
So Bob has a valid pointPeter
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quote Peter Normington:if you are starting a business, you may have to bend the rules a bit
I am not bragging about this, but it is not that difficult to fit an 8 x 4 sign 20 ft up on a wall single handed just using ladders. done it many times, and still here.
I would not reccomend it, unless you are confident,
I do not fear heights, but it makes you more careful if you fear falling.
So Bob has a valid pointPeter, you really must pick a side of the fence to preach from mate. 🙄
Regardless to what is "possible" that is very poor and unprofessional "advice".Bob, I wasn’t actually "asking" how it is possible mate.
I know it is "possible"…. it’s just not practical for a day to day sign firm to install signage using this as your sole access equipment unless added by foot stops, ladder stabilizers or just someone holding them at the bottom.
its dangerous, It also goes against health and safety laws in various ways. so your insurance isn’t going to cover you in the case of an accident.Take Sky TV dish installers, they are independent and put up dishes all over the place. but they will refuse the install if they cant drill a 10mm hole in your facing brick to fix an anchor bolt in place and strap their harness too it. and im not talking any real hieght here…
Trestles are up just as quick as a set of ladders. much much safer and easier to work from. once you way up the pro’s & cons of lean-too ladders-v-trestles for a wide variety of signage/graphics installation there really isnt any competition in my opinion/experience. And i have both in my van now…. so i am not just defending what i have/use.
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Just signed up a large Luton van using trestles. Wouldn’t be without them; in fact when fitting graphics to the front of a Luton over the cab, they really are a Godsend.
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I thought Trestles were considered to be an old fashioned thing that nobody used anymore! Was quite surprised to hear you used them Rob as most places such as lorry depots/yards, train stations, bus stations, airports etc don’t seem to allow them anymore and insist on scaffold towers. In fact i think we have an old set that i might put up for sale soon.
By the way this was not meant to be saying your method was wrong or right, just didn’t think they were generally aloud anymore under most health and safety rules.
Liam
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Liam, i "think" you might be thinking of the old "Iron Men" type builders trestles with the flexi-bouncing batons 12inch wide as a walk-way?
this is the trestles I’m talking about… you can also buy these with a clamp on safety railing.
they are light aluminum and quick to setup. about 2.5ft wide and the catwalk is made same. it then has wooden strap decking to prevent slipping even in the rain. two men can comfortably work on these as they are very stable.
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where did you buy them from Rob?
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Thanks for posting the pics Rob, i don’t fit too much these days but i swear a lot of the places i had been recently insisted scaffold towers only so i was directing that reply at you more than original poster who is probably not going to come up against the same kind of health and saftey people. I will show these pics to my pa and ask him if he’s using these!
But i would agree with you trestles are far more practical despite health and saftey regs.
Liam
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Youngman , Lyte, Titan, Zarges all do them.
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I agree with Rob Trestles are much simpler and convenient but unless they have a handrail with intermediate railing, toe boards etc they do not meet H&S regs either.
Getting away from the H&S side surely a flat platform like this is much easier to work from than ladders any day!!?? And every bit as easily erected.
(if you really want to get tied up in H&S were they erected by a competent scaffolder with a sign off sheet produced? Have you a ladder inspection sheet and register!? all questions I was asked in a H&S audit last week and must have in place by next year to improve my safety grading!)
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we do have the rail/guard mate. 😀
with regards to H&S asking you about a competent scaffold erector, job sheets etc. they maybe looking for a staff member that has an IPAF license. We put some of our lads on this course. It is needed for cherry pickers also. different course, still accredited by IPAF though.
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I have the same as Rob’s and wouldn’t be without them, they halve the time on site and make impossible things possible. I don’t have the safety rails yet but will get them soon as I was stopped from using them once by a H&S officer who was walking past on the way to check on another site, he watched me off load them all off the roof of my van and as I got the last piece to the shop front only then he approached me and asked if I had a safety rail, he sat there and watched me while I loaded them all back on to the van, gave me a warning in his little black book 🙄 :lol1:
The worse thing about them (even though aluminium and fairly light) is they are a pain to get on and off roof racks on your own :lol1: Just tires you out :lol1:
If you can afford them then get some as they will help tremendously, anything higher or awkward positions (unlevel ground etc) then a cherry picker etc is a must.
cheers
Warren
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Sorry Rob I wasn’t meaning that you wouldn’t have them I was just pointing out that trestles are treated the same as a scaffold now a days for anyone planning to use them.
I have guys through the scaffolding course recently as we are certified by a external company to allow us to tender work but each year their requests get more and more crazy!! (see the protection system for the old style builders trestles!! a scaffold would be simpler to erect!! H&S gone mad)
What is the max height these trestles and Yougman boards can go up to?
Ruairi
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OH FOR GAWD’S SAKE!!!!!!!! 😮 😮 😀 😀
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quote Robert Lambie:we do have the rail/guard mate. 😀with regards to H&S asking you about a competent scaffold erector, job sheets etc. they maybe looking for a staff member that has an IPAF license. We put some of our lads on this course. It is needed for cherry pickers also. different course, still accredited by IPAF though.
I work on roofs quite a bit that need scaffolding. the Scaffolding Inspection course is required by at least one person on site before the scaffolding is used.
That is in addition to the scaffolding being erected by qualified scaffolders and a current safety tag in place.Minitowers and tresles I am not sure about but would probably be covered by one of the courses from this co.
http://www.cormackassociates.co.uk/index.php?c=scaffolding
Definitely seperate from IPAF which is as it says for "Powered Access". Cherry picker scissors lift etc. -
I have hi jacked this thread a bit with my H&S rant!! Sorry Colin!!
You will never get a definite answer on what is right or wrong on inspections etc all they will say is "when in court can you explain why you did not have a competent person erect the trestles and a sign off/inspection sheet filled out – NO then you WILL carry a larger percentage of Liability"
Anyway back to Colins question – I would invest in a good router/cutting system that will let you make trays etc from composite boards. Rob and Phil are probably the experts there and seem to prefer the Keencut systems. I am however going to look at the router Ian suggests!
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Ruairi, I don’t think you have hijacked the thread at all as was demonstrated by Warrens post about a passing H&S inspector. Anyone looking to buy kit to do this sort of work needs to know the possible implications and as there seem to be more and more H&S rules and regs about it will only get worse.
Warren bit off topic but do you have a roller at the back of the van. Makes it so much easier loading and unloading gear from the top of your van on your own if you do.
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quote Martin:Warren bit off topic but do you have a roller at the back of the van. Makes it so much easier loading and unloading gear from the top of your van on your own if you do.
I do yes and it is a big help, still a lug to get up and then climb on top to strap it all on securely and then unstrap when you get to site and take them all down and then back up and strap on and then back to the office and unstrap and unload ……
throw a ladder in the back is a bit more easier :lol1:
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Not sure what all the fuss is about 😀
John
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quote Stuart Miller:I work on roofs quite a bit that need scaffolding. the Scaffolding Inspection course is required by at least one person on site before the scaffolding is used.
That is in addition to the scaffolding being erected by qualified scaffolders and a current safety tag in place.Minitowers and tresles I am not sure about but would probably be covered by one of the courses from this co.
http://www.cormackassociates.co.uk/index.php?c=scaffolding
Definitely seperate from IPAF which is as it says for “Powered Access”. Cherry picker scissors lift etc.😕 well spotted and you are correct mate… :lol1:
IPAF is for the power access/cherry picker accreditation etc
My mistake/confusion…. when i went to do the course along with staff members, we did it at an access company, who also offered accreditation on all their access equipment, one being IPAF for their cherry pickers.
in the warehouse where we were put through the paces, there were several companies all being tested on scaffold erection at the opposite end of the warehouse. but tested by same company, which act on behalf of IPAF. if that makes sense? 😳 :lol1:note to myself, don’t rush a post before running out the door to a job! :lol1:
quote Ruairi O’Boyle:Sorry Rob I wasn’t meaning that you wouldn’t have them I was just pointing out that trestles are treated the same as a scaffold now a days for anyone planning to use them.Ruairi
no need to apologies at all mate, you are correct to point it out regardless.
I did mention them in my first post in this thread though, so never bothered mentioning again when i posted the pictures without the rails.the rails do the job well, but the first few years when we began using trestles, the rails were never used. in fact, back when some of those pictures were taken, i dont think i even knew they existed, IF they Existed. it was one of the sign magazines adevertising them when i first saw them.
we first started buying tresttles and the like from this company. do a wide range of handy access equipment. Clow Group
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I realise I can know nothing Rob, but I’m also guessing despite this you didn’t read my first post, the bit that included something along the lines of " I have a friend who has everything you could ever need"
The point to this, on the front of advise is, not everyone will get on with the same equipment as each other, some will like towers, some trestles, some ladders etc. I personally use all three, depending on what I’m doing.
My friend has thousands and thousands of pounds of this type of equipment, truthfully impractical for a signmaker to own, especially one who just going into the shop fascia line .
Advise would be consider if it’s worth subbing all the fitting (that isn’t just a quick ladder of steps job) out to someone who is capable, reliable and reasonable person, who already has the equipment needed. That way you don’t spend time you could be earning proper money messing about drilling holes, basic work a handyman would be glad of these days!
If you don’t want to do that, see if any of your customers that you are pretty friendly have the stuff and will let you use it for the odd site board in return. There is tons of this stuff siting in builders/decorators yards and garages, often bought and seldom used.
Still not convinced, hire a few different systems over the next few jobs you get, and see what suits you, you will be the person using it,lugging it about and storing it, not to mention paying for it.
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Problem is Bob that it’s becoming more and more difficult to do any sort of work from a set of ladders. Most of the work I have done has been from a set of ladders but H&S are making it more and more difficult. It’s sometimes difficult to blame them though when you see some of the clowns out there.
Other week I passed a guy trying to stick up a foamex board on his own in a busy street, no cones, no warning signs, ladder not straight, hammers and things hanging out the guys pockets. The board was to big for him to safely manage himself. Not sure if he had public liability but if an accident had happened then they wouldn’t have paid out anyway as it was an accident waiting to happen. -
WOW 😮 😀
Thanks guys great help and advice on so many things and don’t worry about hi jacking thread it all helps. It highlights things like the many H&S issues there can be. I have read quite a few H&S problems (on the boards here) this industry seems to face and different approaches you all have. Thanks for showing pics of the trestles as I was thinking of the builders type. They look like a very good place to start with a couple of good ladders.
Workshop power tools l think festol saw & router with track & extraction. If anyone uses this sort of stuff could let me know what the extraction units are like as I do a lot of laminating and mounting in the same area. (laminating & mounting with dust everywhere is not a good mix) (hot)
Bob I understand what you are saying about subcontracting and it might be something I have to do on larger jobs but I want to learn and build my own team. Just don’t like subcontracting work like to do as much in-house.
Colin
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I have seen the Clow trssels, (near Parkhead Forge Glasgow) but did not know that you could fit hand rails, something I will have to look into,
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sorry a bit off topic but was looking at my old flat in SA on Google maps just for fun and noticed they were replacing/fixing the roof off scaffolding 😮
are the big mats on the floor to save them if they fall off, looks more like a stunt scene :lol1: typical SA really, I remember when we were kids they repainted out building this same way and we all used to spend the weekends (when the workers were off) climbing up and down the scaffolding, after all we didn’t have Atari’s then 😉 :lol1:
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Hand rails…why do we need hand rails??
This isn’t my handy work by the way….
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Not mine either Stephen I’m afraid to say… wish I could build like that.
Colin if your looking for a descent set of ladders have a look at the Hailo combination ladders, they are class 1 and really handy, should cover most if not all your ladder needs. Get yourself a descent ladder harness at the same time.
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quote Martin:if your looking for a descent set of laddersNever heard of those, I presume it’s a type of ladder that you can only climb down? 😕
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I got my trestles from SiteBox, they were the cheapest at the time, I also phoned them direct and got a small discount off the online price.
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You know me Phill, downwards is the only way I go 😳 😳
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I recently bought a small secondhand tower system (company liquidation sale) . It’s easy enough for one person to build and fits into a small van. I haven’t actually used it yet as I’ve only had it for a week. The height of the feet are easily adjustable to compensate for sloping ground.
I used to hire full size scaffolding towers when required and had to hire a trailer as well to move them on to site. When working at greater heights I hire a cherry picker by the day.
There’s no ideal solution for all cases. It depends on the job in question, but I expect to make good use of the tower system over the years
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I will have to keep my eye on the auction halls for towers ladders trestles.
Colin
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