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How Much would you charge
Hi these would be printed and mounted onto coriboard 8 X 4, supply only
the finished print not yet sortedThanks
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23 Replies
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What kills me (and probably you) is that the customer assumes ‘coriboard / temporary’ = cheap. When the reality is that if you mounted it on dibond you could charge 3x more (in their eyes).
You’ve got 3 sq/m of print (normal retail £100 to £150) plus £10 worth of correx that you MIGHT manage to sell out for £30, plus the laying labour – say £20.
So at least £150 to make it ‘pay’ in the same range as a normal job…£200+ if you can get it.
(Sadly, you’ll be lucky to get £100 for it from most customers.)
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quote John McNickle:Hi these would be printed and mounted onto coriboard 8 X 4, supply only
the finished print not yet sortedThanks
£180 FOR AN 8 X4 on corriboard is the norm around our area John.
£200 on hoarding board. -
Cheers guys i was in around the 150 – 180 mark but over here in northern ireland there are clampets putting these out at 80 – 90 quid and i dont get the point of being in business if you cost yourself money??
i just lost a job there where the customer wanted a 8m X .7m panel sign on the front of the shop, cream on Burgundy with logos and digital images, i priced this to him for £ 760.00 + Fitting and VAT on Alu. comp. board
i was told i was way too dear…. then a sign appeared up made in foam ex and the most basic ugly sign that he could have got, so it has been done on the cheap but even on foam ex it would need flood coated Burgundy etc so i still scratch my head on this, he seen that i had drawn up a real smart job and it would have helped his business and then went for something that made his place look like a nic-nak store? and the sign was fitted then it was down again then refitted so who the hell is making money at that job??
sometimes i just give up
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quote John McNickle:Cheers guys i was in around the 150 – 180 mark but over here in northern ireland there are clampets putting these out at 80 – 90 quid and i dont get the point of being in business if you cost yourself money??
i just lost a job there where the customer wanted a 8m X .7m panel sign on the front of the shop, cream on Burgundy with logos and digital images, i priced this to him for £ 760.00 + Fitting and VAT on Alu. comp. board
i was told i was way too dear…. then a sign appeared up made in foam ex and the most basic ugly sign that he could have got, so it has been done on the cheap but even on foam ex it would need flood coated Burgundy etc so i still scratch my head on this, he seen that i had drawn up a real smart job and it would have helped his business and then went for something that made his place look like a nic-nak store? and the sign was fitted then it was down again then refitted so who the hell is making money at that job??
sometimes i just give up
I’m in armagh John, there are clampets like that here too, infact a couple of them used to work for me before going to make their fortune, on average they last 6 months till a year,
Let them go in the long run the customer will learn, untill that point he’s always right 😀 -
i know what your saying Ian, im in Carrickfergus and a new guy has appeared, drives a taxi and makes signs, hes been caught out a few times now trying to give me a bad name, but im out on my own now 9 yrs so most people know me and have told me his wild claims… People dont like others bad mouthing others so he will learn
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quote John McNickle:Cheers guys i was in around the 150 – 180 mark but over here in northern ireland there are clampets putting these out at 80 – 90 quid and i dont get the point of being in business if you cost yourself money??i just lost a job there where the customer wanted a 8m X .7m panel sign on the front of the shop, cream on Burgundy with logos and digital images, i priced this to him for £ 760.00 + Fitting and VAT on Alu. comp. board
i was told i was way too dear…. then a sign appeared up made in foam ex and the most basic ugly sign that he could have got, so it has been done on the cheap but even on foam ex it would need flood coated Burgundy etc so i still scratch my head on this, he seen that i had drawn up a real smart job and it would have helped his business and then went for something that made his place look like a nic-nak store? and the sign was fitted then it was down again then refitted so who the hell is making money at that job??
sometimes i just give up
that’s happened to me a few times recently down here too, it really gets my goat that I spend a good while discussing the customers needs, ensuring they know the difference between correx (sheite) and composite (the dadddy) and different materials, I ensure i recommend what materials to use though i tell them they can go with cheaper if they prefer, I then sort their basic layout and send with a quote, only to find that they tell you you’re too dear and the job is going to another local shop, then you see a cheap n nasty bit of correx or foamex goes up. little wonders it’s cheap.
until recently i think that in 5yrs of trading, i;ve only lost a couple of jobs on price, I always try and remain competetive with local businesses, without cutting either of our throats for a few quid, i prefer to sell based more on customer service and good quality work than low price and it’s alays stood me ok til this past few months. I reckon i’ve been outpriced by a huge margin on about 8 jobs this past three months or so, would love to find out who it is as it’s obviously someone who’s either new to the industry or the area and trying to get a foothold or, someone who’s in trouble and getting desperate. that said, while three have gone up -cheap-, the others have not so perhaps the customer is trying to call my bluff.
quotes are becoming increasingly annoying too, starts off all singing and by the end of it, you’re lucky to get a swing sign!
lol, lets hope the economic downturn ends soon too, then the beer money chancers can all go get a proper job again!
ooh, just had a call from a job i thought i’d lost, i was about £80 over their £250 budget in my quote so was told i’d not got it, however, they’ve just come back and said the cheaper priced quote couldn’t come up with any decent artwork so they want me to do it!
the sun is out and things look better already!
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Well Hugh that’s what Iv’e noticed in my first year of trading, things can change on a knife edge, I thought I was heading for trouble last month, but weve already outsold November this month and it’s still coming in, I can’t keep up.
This may help tho, having been in sales for many many years I have a little ploy for quoting.
I always quote 2 prices (you have to face 2 face the customer for this for the best results) One price that’s for a pucker, you can’t bend it super dooper job with the best materials and life span.. tell them everything what sub your using, and how your using the rolls royce of materials.
Then I say, but if your just looking for a quick cheapy cheapy job you will pay x amount, and then tell them how crap that cheapy cheapy job will be, but the options there if they want it. If you get the cheapy then just use the worst materials or tell them that you cant fit them in for 4 weeks.
Normally you get a price between the 2 and the customer closes their own deal by trying to have a deal with you, when that happens the customer is acctually buying from you, so then you step in and say, well i can only do that if you order and pay a deposit now….. bingo job done
I do really really cheap vehicle graphics, with the lowest grade vinyl I can get, but I rarely end up doing that job I always manage to up sell the customer to a better job, sprats and mackerel come to mind..
Sorry if I’m teaching anyone to suck eggs guys but it’s my field of expertise so I love getting the opportunity to pass it on 😉
BigMo
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yeah its exactly like that here, im working against 2 guys with Ebay plotters and pricing for beer tokens.. i usually go down the middle, not the dearest and not the cheapest, i dont like putting tat out into the public domain because if they are asked who did it then its our name that goes with it..
i have an employee and rent and rates to pay as do the people i am quoting to, but they refuse to see it this way, i have an office and workshop they can come to at any time, not my kitchen table and a laptop…. sadly our trade is being swamped with chancers that think [u][u]’its only stickers, thats easy money’ and they will bring it down to the lowest they can just to look like they are busy…
i have a fellow signmaking friend i work with a good bit, hes in the trade alot longer than me and he says the change in it all over 30 yrs makes him want to cry and give up 🙁
i mean i had a guy ask me to look at his LWB iveco daily, it was covered head to toe in crap small text in 2 colours, every bit of panel they could use and a orange strip along the whole bottom around 500mm, i told him £500.00 because there would be 2 days in the whole job.. he told me i would never have gotten it and showed me the hand writen docket for £180 cash, is there any profit in that for anyone?
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Hi Mo,
to a certain extent I agree with your philosophy, but unfortunately when that occasional "cheap" 58 quid job fails in a years time, the customer wont tell his mates that he only had a cheap job done, I would rather let the "competition" do that sort of work, they will get the bad name and not me.
I quote for a good job, at a reasonable price, and I only use good materials on the basis that the overall difference to the in cost for your average van or fascia is only going to be a few quid anyway. Most of the cost goes in overheads and labour.
If the customer is on a budget, I will sell them a livery, but very basic, and using minimum but good materials,
Thats just my take on itPeter
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I think it depends on the situation John and the market you are trying to hit. We can do a small van for £95 but they will get £95’s worth. I have only ever done 2 of these everyone else up sells….
Basically I use these as loss leaders just to get work in, it works because the next van is never as cheap.
But you will always have customers who don’t want to pay anything, let them have the cheap stuff while you pursue the better jobs… I sold a 3 sign shop front the other day with basic writing (Brushed alley effect) on 3 PVC board each 600×1800 with frame fitted for £580, when I finished I gave the customer back £50 and told him it wasn’t as much as I expected so there was a small refund.. guess what?
I got 2 more jobs 🙂 next door and his van
BigMo
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totally agree Peter.. Mo the danger there is he tells his Friends that you will haggle and drop money on your quote so they come in and want to do the same, time haggling is time lost… the van at £95.00 was easy for you to knock out but in 6 months when it starts shrinking and pealing he will be back to get it fixed and want it done for free because its only been 6 mths
🙁ive just had an email from the client of the first question on this thread, i quoted £150 for 1-2 boards and £115 for 5 or more
she has replied that she was paying £85 per board, i worked in the place she is using up until now and they are not a cheap firm so she is either calling my bluff or not saying that they order them with a pile of other stuff to get the cost down
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quote Peter Normington:Hi Mo,
to a certain extent I agree with your philosophy, but unfortunately when that occasional “cheap” 58 quid job fails in a years time, the customer wont tell his mates that he only had a cheap job done, I would rather let the “competition” do that sort of work, they will get the bad name and not me.
I quote for a good job, at a reasonable price, and I only use good materials on the basis that the overall difference to the in cost for your average van or fascia is only going to be a few quid anyway. Most of the cost goes in overheads and labour.
If the customer is on a budget, I will sell them a livery, but very basic, and using minimum but good materials,
Thats just my take on itPeter
Hi Peter, Mo,
I’m with Peter on this one, perhaps i’m cutting off my own nose to spite my face but, I try very hard to not put out cheap work with materials I don’t trust or designs and layouts i think are pap, I know i’ve lost work because I just couldn’t bring myself to leave the customers "design and layout" alone! I suppose the danger is getting to a point where my head is too far jammed up my backside to make any money – morals and high standards don’t always pay the bills i guess.
I fully understand what you’re saying about pricing and, to a degree, do exactly what you’re describing but the two quotes i give are 1), The all singing all dancing, quality cast materials and more elaborate layout etc etc, then, No.2) the one I expect to get, which will still be priced with either a cheaper cast (751 or equiv) or good quality calendared, often it’ll be the same design but dumbed down a bit, I will usually get the job on one or other.
I haven’t actually checked my pricing against other local shops in recent years, I’ve always been relatively competetive without deliberately undercutting anyone, my pricing method hasn’t changed much in 4yrs, my prices have only now -after umpteen increases in my materials- gone up slightly but that’s only a few quid a job, nowt life changing.
I don’t have huge overheads, most know i work from a timber workshop at home, bit of eleccy, van and liability insurance and thats about it really, circumstances dictate that I only have around a 5hr working day so, it’s perhaps just as well but, I want to compete, not fight over silly beer money profit with people who can afford to work for nothing or perhaps shouldn’t be working anyways, I could churn out cheap all day and, perhaps for the sake of my bank balance I should but, I just can’t do it, I can’t!!
I do sell on ebay but I always make things which aren’t available as clip art etc, that way i can be fairly sure that i’m not competing with those who aren’t even bothering to register on ebay as a business, if it does get copied and sold for 99p, i let it go and move on to the next thing.
ah, anyways, got work to do! laterz.
Hugh
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quote Mo Gillis-Coates:I think it depends on the situation John and the market you are trying to hit. We can do a small van for £95 but they will get £95’s worth. I have only ever done 2 of these everyone else up sells….
Basically I use these as loss leaders just to get work in, it works because the next van is never as cheap.
But you will always have customers who don’t want to pay anything, let them have the cheap stuff while you pursue the better jobs… I sold a 3 sign shop front the other day with basic writing (Brushed alley effect) on 3 PVC board each 600×1800 with frame fitted for £580, when I finished I gave the customer back £50 and told him it wasn’t as much as I expected so there was a small refund.. guess what?
I got 2 more jobs 🙂 next door and his van
BigMo
I don’t think i’ve ever given money back but, have often made it clear that i’ve not charged for the extra hour spent on installing the job,
as for £95 vans, I guess something simple, one or two colour using only a few mtres of vinyl and a quick design and install time would still be worth doing if it was only a few hours start to finish, materials less than a tenner plus time i guess, it’s just that all profit effectively gets thrown away the moment they want to start ‘moving this and changing that’.
I suppose i get more out of doing a big job which might take me almost a week in total and earning the equivalent of a few weeks wage, than doing lots of little jobs that turn me into a headless chicken!
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Hi guys, all opinions accepted but I think you may be missing the point a little.
Yes I quote cheap and the customer know exactly what they would bget for that, a cheap job that will peel or split after about 1-2 years (I think 6 month would be a bit off the mark even for me)
If the customer decides to go for that option then I make sure he is FULLY aware of what he is getting, I even go as far as getting them to sign a disclaimer to that effect..
The point is that because they are aware of what a cheap job is, they invariably don’t want it, and if someone quotes a cheap job after you, the customer knows (or at least thinks) its going to be brown and smelly. What you are actually doing is educating the customer so he knows the good from the bad.
My top price Hugh is always over what i want for the job, I load it so that I have a leeway and room for mark down, sometimes they take the full price. AND if they tell their mates that you can be haggled down…. SO WHAT? It’s more business coming your way, that’s gorilla marketing as far as I’m concerned.. You will still be able to get them in at your price, what’s important is that you know what the minimum is you will do the job for and make sure you stick to that and don’t go below.
Try giving money back, and see where it gets you… It’s one of the best marketing tactics I have ever had (make sure you can afford it in the job) all you have to say is, you got a special deal from the supplier as they had an offer on this month.
I have stuff on ebay that on the face of it is dead cheap, like supply only vehicle graphics… but guess what? I don’t really sell any (occasionally I do) but I get plenty of phone calls for similar jobs that are worth much more, I regularly get supply only jobs for £200 + happy…… days.
I really recommend getting some sales books guys and getting to know your customers wants and needs, how to cater for those without giving up valuable profit and you will get that extra 10-20% on each sale. Did you know that the colour clothing you wear when quoting face to face can make up to 28% difference in your sales figures???? Sales is the big area we all miss sometimes, and it’s THE singularly MOST important part of your business…
One last thing……. Whats wrong with occasionally doing a great job cheap? I never compromise my quality of service whatever the cost…. LOSS LEADERS if you want results like the big boys you have to think like them too.. and they all do it from tescos to apple & microsoft…
Happy Selling guys 😉 training given at £200 an hour, will be the best money you EVER spent lol
"Sorry for the forcefulness of my post having read it, but I’m really passionate about sales, I’m not brilliant at making signs having made many mistakes, I’m pretty well versed in design but Sales is what I have done and trained for over 20 years so I sometimes tend to be a little exuberant in my posting, I do apologise, but it is a crucial part of our businesses, that’s why I employed a sales and marketing manager before I employed workshop staff, if you aint got no sales, then you aint got no business"
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Hi Mo,
fully understand where you’re coming from, I really do. While i’m not saying I wouldn’t or haven’t done ‘cheaper’ jobs, I would always only do it with good materials, regardless of any disclaimer. I just feel that the disclaimer means very litle when they’re sat in the pub and complaining that 18 months after spending loads of money on their livery, that it’s shrunk or worse, word of mouth is more powerul than any piece of paper!
i’m not suggesting you do use cheap rubbish, i’m sure you don’t, it just reads a little like that.
as for selling points, i understand what you’ve said and, in my own way already employ many sales techniques of my own -in my life i’ve had to sell to builders, joe public, small and medium businesses and tightest of all, drag racers and hot-rodders so haggling, up-selling, loading on a discount, etc, are all used when i think the need arises!
as for ebay, I used to do similar to what you say, back then I was one of maybe 5 sellers offering whole vehicle kits, difference was.. they were about £50-100, i started at £100, i never did much but, still have the odd customer who asks me to supply their decals for new vehicles now and then! now though, there are hundreds offering cut price stuff, I like to offer things others don’t, more niche stuff i guess, it’s not gonna make me rich but it’s often a steady amount of income each month for little effort and, best of all, no beer money competitors on the whole.
if someone is offering what i want to do, then i will match their price -if worth doing, usually i’ll just improve the product, make it better in some way and go more expensive! it works.
anyways, xmas is -i’ told by the kids- coming, so i’d better see about earning some more lolly!
Hugh
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i get your points too mo, probably my bad as ive stuck to the same ways since i started so i know no different in the sales department
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yeah your bang on there Hugh, I tell them it’s cheap and what to expect , but I go out of my way to make sure it lasts.. then there’s always a reason why the next person cant have it cheap, and I think pete was referring to my website which states vehicle graphics from £58, the big word there is FROM, I will send anyone their business name and number on 3-5 year Vinyl one colour 3 time over for a car for £58 one font…. But i have never sold any, but from that I have sold lots of much larger more profitable jobs.
Great about ebay Hugh, I’m never the cheapest on ebay ever, there are many people that hear alarm bells when something is cheap, especially with something that is hand produced.
I sell paper banners for more than some people sell PVC banners for… figure that one out!
Anyway must make the kids lunch…… signs? who has time to make them?
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I have a question to ask everyone….. if you’ll allow me to indulge myself?
Please answer as honestly as you can…..
When you go to your place of business each day Do You?
Go to work to work IN your business? OR Do You?
Go to work to work ON your business?
I can see there are some fantastic very experienced and skilled sign makers out there, that’s obvious from the posts I have read, the level of knowledge and the images in the portfolio, BUT…… Could you stand back and let someone else do that for you while you go to work on your business?
If not, why not?
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I spent 3 years working ON my business, now it is running well I am working IN my business because I love doing what I do which is sign making. If I loved working on businesses I would sell this one and start working ON another one.
I am happiest working on my own doing what I do, if I can’t or don’t do it then what’s the point?
JMO
Cheers
Warren
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You should go on the next series of the apprentice Mo!
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Lol thanks Gav, bit old and long in the tooth for that old Malarky, but keep your eyes on dragons den 😉
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quote Warren Beard:I spent 3 years working ON my business, now it is running well I am working IN my business because I love doing what I do which is sign making. If I loved working on businesses I would sell this one and start working ON another one.
I am happiest working on my own doing what I do, if I can’t or don’t do it then what’s the point?
JMO
Cheers
Warren
Very valid point Warren, if your absolutely happy then your in a very good place I admire that, and you understood where I was coming from, you had to work on it and not in it for at least 3 years… And your understand that from time to time you will have to work on it to sustain it…. Do you close up for a few weeks when you have a holiday?
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quote Mo Gillis-Coates:quote Warren Beard:I spent 3 years working ON my business, now it is running well I am working IN my business because I love doing what I do which is sign making. If I loved working on businesses I would sell this one and start working ON another one.
I am happiest working on my own doing what I do, if I can’t or don’t do it then what’s the point?
JMO
Cheers
Warren
Very valid point Warren, if your absolutely happy then your in a very good place I admire that, and you understood where I was coming from, you had to work on it and not in it for at least 3 years… And your understand that from time to time you will have to work on it to sustain it…. Do you close up for a few weeks when you have a holiday?
Not yet 😉 To be honest it is usually a quiet month December so I take it as a "holiday" or a break from flat out working, some days I will do nothing if the stuff I have on is not urgent, do the school run etc or just stroll around town, that’s the joys of working for yourself.
I agree and admit I do obviously still have to work ON the business to keep it running and in "good health" but I would say it is only maybe 10% of the time, the rest is just day to day running which includes checking in with old customers and sweeping under the tables :lol1:
As a self employed person you have to both work in and on your business is you want it to sustain.
cheers
Warren
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