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printing, how much to diversify
I have recently been thinking of all the experimentation i have been
doing with regards to printing and signiage. I have decided to concentrate on the following :printing
canvases
small signage manufactruing
large signage manufacturing
vehicle graphics
banners
stickers and labels
wall art
tshirts (may be…)
pop up banners
aboards
reflective signage
cutting of graphics
graphic design.
wallpaperapart from installation done in house such as vehicles, and other signage, i am looking to give up the large on sight installation of shop signs and windows as i do not have the means, practice, insurance and licence’s to do that kind of work. the question i have is, would that be a good or a bad idea??? i can outsource but i have been told that other printing companies can steal your customers and if given to a dedicated installer which doesnt make signs they can be slow as they are always busy. Advice would be appreciated.
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40 Replies
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🙂 You’ve been a member since September last year, asked a load of questions, been given a ton of free advice on marketing, materials, application, advice on not doing it all on the cheap, ideal profit margins, suppliers, installations etc. etc. c’mon, dig deep – pay for a membership, load up a photo of yourself and start giving something back to the community. 😉 even just some photos of work you’ve done in the portfolio section.
As much as it pains me to say this, some decisions you’ll have to make yourself. "We" have no clue as to your abilities so any advice would be near pointless. Hey, I don’t know if you have ever printed wallpaper, can properly apply vinyl or can actually ‘graphic design’.
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I’ve not known a third party trade printer to steal clients…they stand to make more from one sign company’s jobs than a few orders here & there from ‘ordinary’ customers. And fitters…usually not interested in manufacturing anyway.
Manufacturing without ‘major’ fitting….so long as it pays the bills – do it.
Dave
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Stuart, it’s some 5 months since you thought about setting up a new business but looking back, it looks as though you have got no further in the sign business than posting on a forum.
Have you actually produced anything yet? -
Nice friendly forum this :lol1:
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quote David Rogers:🙂 You’ve been a member since September last year, asked a load of questions, been given a ton of free advice on marketing, materials, application, advice on not doing it all on the cheap, ideal profit margins, suppliers, installations etc. etc. c’mon, dig deep – pay for a membership, load up a photo of yourself and start giving something back to the community. 😉 even just some photos of work you’ve done in the portfolio section.As much as it pains me to say this, some decisions you’ll have to make yourself. “We” have no clue as to your abilities so any advice would be near pointless. Hey, I don’t know if you have ever printed wallpaper, can properly apply vinyl or can actually ‘graphic design’.
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I’ve not known a third party trade printer to steal clients…they stand to make more from one sign company’s jobs than a few orders here & there from ‘ordinary’ customers. And fitters…usually not interested in manufacturing anyway.
Manufacturing without ‘major’ fitting….so long as it pays the bills – do it.
Dave
Dave i agree with you mate, re the trade printer part, as a trade printer ourselves we print for all sorts of customers mainly sign makers and would never "bite the hand that feeds us" as the saying goes, we get much more work out of 1 trade customer than trying to go direct to there customers. just pure madness if we did.
Jus
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Yes i guess things are going a bit slowly for me due to lack of space but i hope to change that within the next month with a unit. That i why i am asking if it would work with not doing sign installs. Like i say there are quite a few reason why i dont want to get in to installs. I wouldnt want to get the blame if something went wrong as the customer would still point at me. if i dont have liablity then that could kill my business. Also the installer will have there vans and clothing advertised which means Thats gonna steal potential business.
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quote Stuart Green:Yes i guess things are going a bit slowly for me due to lack of space but i hope to change that within the next month with a unit. That i why i am asking if it would work with not doing sign installs. Like i say there are quite a few reason why i dont want to get in to installs. I wouldnt want to get the blame if something went wrong as the customer would still point at me. if i dont have liablity then that could kill my business. Also the installer will have there vans and clothing advertised which means Thats gonna steal potential business.🙄 Makes perfect sense to me that doesn’t (hmm)
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Dont know what you mean Gary??
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quote Stuart Green:Yes i guess things are going a bit slowly for me due to lack of space but i hope to change that within the next month with a unit. That i why i am asking if it would work with not doing sign installs. Like i say there are quite a few reason why i dont want to get in to installs. I wouldnt want to get the blame if something went wrong as the customer would still point at me. if i dont have liablity then that could kill my business. Also the installer will have there vans and clothing advertised which means Thats gonna steal potential business.…so you don’t want the liability but you want all the credit? If your installers do a bad job it’s your reputation at stake anyway.
What are you trying to achieve with your business? What area of sign/print/design do you have the most experience in (if any)? Being a trade printer isn’t a walk in the park either, not to mention the setup costs and throughput you need to make it profitable.
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Stuart,
I think you should focus on doing a few key services, stuff that you can manage from start to finish. Then add more services on as your business & customer base grows.
At the moment it looks like you want to do everything for everybody, jack of all trades, master of none 😕 This could be your downfall before you even get started 🙁
Best of luck anyway 🙂
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quote Stuart Green:Yes i guess things are going a bit slowly for me due to lack of space
C’mon – there are people on here trading successfully from their spare rooms and garages – I was in a 32′ portacabin for months with a 4′ plotter, 54" printer, 16×4′ bench, all of my roll stock, couple of PCs and a chair…it’s not what you’ve got…it’s what you do with it!
quote :but i hope to change that within the next month with a unit.A unit means nothing if you’ve got nothing to make. Unless you can hit the ground running with a business plan (you ain’t got one or we wouldn’t be having this conversation!), good customer base (?), skills to impress (dunno…), wanting to take the rough with the smooth…cream with the crap….big with the small…difficult and the easy and invest in doing it right. Nobody on here I know trades on "buy cheap materials so I can sell it cheap", I want to walk off a job and sleep at night KNOWING it’ll last, won’t fall down or peel off…so I lost a few quid…but I gained a loyal customer.
quote :That i why i am asking if it would work with not doing sign installs.i make very little doing the installs – I can make a lot more working in the office per hour. Why do I fit…because I HAVE to…it’s another part of the job…if you want to get the impressive work, be prepared to fit or arrange fitting.
quote :Like i say there are quite a few reason why i dont want to get in to installs. I wouldnt want to get the blame if something went wrong as the customer would still point at me. if i dont have liablity then that could kill my business.Better wise up…you need liability insurance for screwing up an A4 sign…just takes somebody to trip over your toolbox and they’ll take your house off you in compensation, or doing a livery…you scratch the paintwork, or the car gets damaged in your possession ££chi-ching.
quote :Also the installer will have there vans and clothing advertised which means Thats gonna steal potential business.All the more reason to do it yourself. To be fair, I’ve turned up on dozens of jobs as a sub-contracted fitter. NOT ONCE have I ‘nicked’ a client even though I’m clearly not the company they thought they were dealing with. If you are paranoid – go with the fitters…or hire a white van for them 😉
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quote :Quote:
Also the installer will have there vans and clothing advertised which means Thats gonna steal potential business.
All the more reason to do it yourself. To be fair, I’ve turned up on dozens of jobs as a sub-contracted fitter. NOT ONCE have I ‘nicked’ a client even though I’m clearly not the company they thought they were dealing with. If you are paranoid – go with the fitters…or hire a white van for themActually some fitters in the sign game have unmarked vehicles or will put your mags on their van so this is not an issue 😀
John
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My Dad and Brother offer a sign fitting service. They are totally separate from my sign business. So i can tell you about contracting to fitters and how that works as they work for some of the biggest sign and graphics firms and also some smaller operations. I have also worked as a fitter in the past in this way,
Most of their customers would not use them if they advertised themselves on their vehicles so they keep their vans strictly blank at all times. And have even used magnetics from the company they are fitting for.
The same goes for their work wear and they are usually supplied with branded clothing from the people they are fitting for.
I don’t know what you mean about them being slow, or hard to book as they are busy. There are loads of fitters struggling for work at the moment, due to the way the recession has hit advertising. But i don’t think you would ever have a problem finding fitters anyway.
Like with any business you would obviously have to build up relationships with sub contractors you used regularly and may well find some unreliable etc, but that’s just trial and error.
Whilst they fit, they will be representing you, so it’s your rep on the line, so you should always be careful who you use.
It can be expensive if you want highly qualified ,experienced fitters, but it will guarantee the work is done well and leaves you to take care of other areas of the business that you are good at.
If you find the right applicators, they can advise you in areas of signage which you’re unsure of. What is possible with certain materials etc.
All the other questions you asked, i can’t really answer, i think you just have to work things out as you go along and that’s half the fun.
Anyway, hope this helps,
Liam
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Stuart…going to be blunt here but with all the questions you’ve asked and the comments made on this thread I’d suggest another form of career for you. It seems to me and by the look of it you want everyone on here to make the decisions for you but don’t wish to heed any of the advice given.
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I think David R and Liam have pretty much said what i was gonna say,
A, insurance is a must, i think i pay about £600 a year which covers me for £2m public liability, tools (pc’s, cutters, power/hand tools) whether in workshop, on site or in vehicle are covered to about £18k. i can work to heights of up to 10m, blah blah, sure it’s £600 i’d rather put in my pocket but even doing a van will require insurance, what if you drop a knife and scratch the paintwork? i’m also 99% sure that part of your lease agreement on the unit will require not only contents insurance but also an insurance that covers at least the unit either side in case of fire caused by yourself, or something to that effect.
i can add "an employee" to my insurance for £9 a day (up to 100 days) and to cover hired plant would be a bit extra per day too, easily added to the job.
B, Fitters are just that… fitters, most of them have no affiliation to any sign company, i’ve used a couple and had no problems, i don’t know why i don’t use them more often!
I’m probably going to have to use fitters more frequently in the future due to a number of factors, I have no doubts about them at all.
good luck with whatever you choose to do.
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I use fitters as well, one reason is I think my time is better suited to making the signs and two I don’t like ladders:)
I use 2 local guys who are small builders and do a good job of fixing signs to walls etc. I’m on very good terms with another sign shop nearby and they fit any individual letters or signs requiring a bit more sign specific experience. We don’t tout for each others work but if we quote for the same job so be it – my attitude is ‘if you have competition then compete’
30+ years on and I’m still here so I guess I can’t be getting it so wrong.
Alan D -
quote Alan Drury:30+ years on and I’m still here so I guess I can’t be getting it so wrong.
Alan DI thought you wanted to end up with your own tropical island and drinking cocktails all day 😉
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A big thanx to all of your answers even the pesimists lol. 😀 This is what i was exactley trying to get at. I know that its way too much hassel with the fitting so i just needed to know what was the best way to go which i initially thought was to ditch it completely and just manufacture signs. If i were to hire fitters which would probably be from an established company then how would it work??
I mean :
if somthing went wrong would it come out of my insurance or the fiiters??
I would still have to get someone to measure up the signs so do you guys just do that yourself or get the installers to do it??stu
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Measure up the signs! That’s nothing, surely you can do that? You could get the fitters, but they would charge, so why not just do that part yourself?
About the insurance regarding mistakes with material, that’s a grey area actually and differs from company to company, you’re probably best to draw up some kind of agreement about this yourself with the fitters before the work starts.
Liam
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Don’t think its a Grey area at all, if you invoice the customer for a fitted sign then you are held responsible if that sign falls off and kills someone.
If you invoiced him, just for the sign, and it was his responsibility to fit it himself then you’d be in the clear.
Cheers John
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Sorry think maybe i misunderstood the question there, i was refering to a mistake with the materials such as if a fitter messes up a job, who would be responsible for the cost of replacing the materials, the fitter or the sign maker. I knew it was a grey area from experience 😳
Liam
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I think John is right and that is why I have insurance, liability and empolyee.
Neil, I only work a couple of weeks a year and I am currently on a tropical island although I don’t own this particular one. Another cocktail is just on its way. I hear its raining over there.
Alan D -
What about the sight survey?? surely the fitter is going to want to know how difficult or easy the jobs going to be??
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i may be corrected on this, but in the 25-30 odd years my dad’s been a fitter he’s never done a site survey that i can remember. But maybe that’s because the people he worked for had the experience to do it themselves. I think if you payed a fitter to do this part also it could become costly.
Just my opinion
Liam
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This brings me back to my initial question of how much it it worth doing ans whether it is worth only manufacturing signs. I wouldnt know how to survey signs. I mean what does actual surveying require??
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Stuart, if you have to ask the question "how do I survey signs", how the heck are you going to manufacture anything at all?
I think if I was a fitter looking for work from a sign manufacturer, it would be me who was worried about using you rather than the other way round.
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quote Stuart Green:This brings me back to my initial question of how much it it worth doing ans whether it is worth only manufacturing signs. I wouldnt know how to survey signs. I mean what does actual surveying require??
A tape measure? :headbang2:
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I’m going to be a-helluva-blunt.
This is not a business for people who have "the gear and no idea".
It requires hard work, initiative, dedication, skills, calculated risk taking just like any other business if it’s to succeed.
You have no idea on surveying, pricing, credit control / money, limited manufacturing ability and fitting skills, no definite direction for the business, miss-trust third party printers & fitters…even though you’ve NEVER used them.
Are you a signmaker or a wannabe cowboy just out to make an easy fast buck with no insurance and the cheapest materials you can lay your hands on?
You talk the talk with the VP300 and grandiose plans of canvases. billboards & wallpaper but haven’t grasped the first clues on running any business.
Take your own advice:
quote :“I have decided to give up the hard work and stop doing all the sign work and just do computer based work”Hate to say it but your attitude is all wrong Stuart – signmaking is not for everybody…we all work bloody hard and although we rely on each other here from time to time for odd bits of help or opinions we’re not asking for every last bit of advice to form a business from squat…not even a basic desire to put in some hard work.
There are SO many comments throughout all of your posts about ‘wanting it easy’, ‘too much hassle’, and an aversion to ‘hard work’.
ps. Surveying. Before you can ‘JUST’ manufacture them you’d better know what you’re going to be making and how big, what materials to use etc…as big a skill as fitting to be honest. It’s all ladders, tape measures, photographs and 100% certainty that before you spend your £HARD earned on materials it’s going to fit…the first time…and stay up.
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here here Dave 🙂
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Is this a wind up? 😮
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quote David-Foster-:Is this a wind up? 😮I was thinking that 😮
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David my friend i think you have really got the wrong end of the stick here mate 😕
of course its not all easy nobody says it is.
let me rephrase my question I have a roland print and cut and i am going to be based in a unit. My strengths are: graphic design. Now fair enough that this forum is called uksignboards but lets face it you dont have to be a signmaker to have one of these machines as we all know that you can:
print banners
make stickers
produce canvases
print wallpaperand so much more which has nothing to do with signs.
I’m not a diy ladders and screw drivers person and i am fairly new to the industry and since i have had my machine to be honest i have experimented to see what works and doesnt for me. The one thing i have learnt is anyone can design and print but its what you do with the product afterward and how much to stretch. hench once again the initial question "how much to diversify" I just want to know if its worth not doing the signs or just manufacturing them and not installing them. I think its pretty wrong to assume that you can only make signs with these machines.
And by the way yes I have fitted a few signs, applied frost, done a few fascia here and there but i wouldnt say I know anything about installing them as i have had help from other’s. I dont know what surveying entails. From previous posts I have read that it can be to see how difficult it is for a sign to be installed so for example where and how the present sign is, how difficult to remove, factors which donut require a "tape measure". As a fair newbie i may not take things into consideration when i should for what surveying is and should be? oh and by the way with regards to this:
"I have decided to give up the hard work and stop doing all the sign work and just do computer based work"
I meant the ladders andinstalll work which isexactlyy the same as some people have mentioned on this post.
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quote Stuart Green:The one thing i have learnt is anyone can design and print but its what you do with the product afterward and how much to stretch. hench once again the initial question “how much to diversify” I just want to know if its worth not doing the signs or just manufacturing them and not installing them. I think its pretty wrong to assume that you can only make signs with these machines.
HI Stuart.
at the end of the day, use the printer for what makes you money, only you can decide what you what to do with it, I know what I would do with it but… that’s what i intend to do and it may not work for others.
while I agree with you, that it is wrong to assume that these machines can only make signs, I have to disagree with your point about "anyone can design and print". I’ve seen lots and lots of work from sign makers who can’t design, I’m no graphic designer myself but, you have to have half an idea before hitting print!
as for fitters, meet up with a few, find out what they require from you, spend a few days with them and see what they need and how they work, that way you’ll better understand what is required of your sign making abilities. to be truthful, if you can’t fit a sign (fairly basic diy really) then i don’t see you finding it easy to make a sign, that said, i find installation is easy for me, it’s space that is an issue so i buy in rather than manufacture.
best of luck with it dude,
Hugh
ps, a survery is just that, turn up, shake the customers hand, get your note book out and see what he wants, measure up, make note of any possible problems you might need to deal with, shake hands again, leave, go make the quote up.
that’s it in a nut shell!
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Thanx Hugh
Thats exactly where I was coming from Hugh just needed to know what surveying specifically entailed and you hit the nail on the head. Thanx again it makes perfect sense.
Stu
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So Stuart….are you now going to get on with it and start posting your work on here to show us that you can do it?
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Hi Stuart
glad you came back and addressed the basic issue of your background and what you are actually trying to do.
You see, from your posts it was difficult to tell beyond "I’ve got myself a printer…how do I make money in the easiest way?"
In light of this – and your ‘not so hands on ladders & screwdrivers’ thing, is it a ‘design & print’ workshop you envision? Or something more along the lines of ‘I make ’em ~ you fit ’em’ for signs of all types?
Like I said, surveying involves FAR more than a design ability. (Post up some stuff you’ve done eh!.) If you can’t KNOW what materials to use, how & where it’ll be fixed / applied then quoting becomes a real challenge. If you win all your quotes because it’s cheap / unsuitable materials and ill thought out fitting plans then you’re on to a losing streak that’ll cost you dearly.
Getting somebody else to survey carries it’s own risks – what if they got it wrong…chances are they won’t want to be held liable. Not unless it’s the same survey & install team you plan on using…then there’s a vested interest to get it right.
Do like we all did / do. Start small and work up. Character building stuff and ass tightening moments abound for us all.
I know you say you realise it’s not going to be easy, so please, as a friendly bit of jovial advice – stop looking for the simplest, cheapest option all of the time! Sometimes doing it right is more important in life and in business. Good materials are expensive, so are good staff and good skills, just don’t become a cowboy doing transits and banners for beer money eh. 😀
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Yes David 🙂 design and print is what i am really good at and i dont even mind manufacturing the signs as that is also something i enjoy. I just cant handle tools and ladders. Diy guy is just not my thing and it just makes me ask whether its worth the hassel of sub contracting the work and the factors envolved. I do completely agree with you as what you get is certainly what you pay for and will keep to market prices. 😀 will just have to think wheteher or not its best to sub install work out. I’m currently using Intercoat vinyls and yes i will post some of my stuff 🙂
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Stuart, I know a small 2 man company that mainly do design and print, they will also make the odd sign if asked but they do supply only for customer to fit themselves, this only really qualifies for small signs weather internal or external and will basically fit in to a car otherwise you will have to expect your customer to have a van or you will have to deliver. These guys work from a small unit and as far as I know do quiet well but I would guess signs is only about 5% of their work.
If you enjoy making signs as well then do it on a small scale like this but what ever you do make sure you know you are using the right/best materials and most importantly charge a good price for it or don’t do it, all you will do is devalue the market place and make yourself and everyone else suffer along with your decision.
I hope that helps and good luck.
cheers
Warren
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Hello Stuart,
First of all I would like to say well done for laying your cards on the table and being open to suggestions, and it was refreshing to notice that you have not been flustered by some remarks which will hold you in good stead for the future.
If you have a strong design foundation then it will certainly be possible to diversify your business to provide signage, stationery, exhibition and promotional items etc, although not a manufacturer, you could employ trade suppliers/installers and oversee the work as a project manager, but you must be very confident with any third parties credentials and abilities.
Good luck with any decisions you make.
Jeremy
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As a freelance installer ( as most are ), what advantage would we get by ‘poaching’ ?
I have regular clients that over time become almost partners, they supply me with work, I do a good job they supply me with work and on it goes, the chain of a good relationship !
Occassionly, they pass on my details to one of their clients who I deal directly with, and that is remembered at christmas, lol !
My clients issue me with their t-shirts to wear as I’m representing their business, on my jobs I wear my shirts !
As for stealing printers work, I have trouble printing my invoices…. I’m an installer !!
And the above goes for all the installers that I know of ! -
Sorry for jumping in a bit late with the previous reply, I’ve only just seen that there are 4 pages to this subject, I’d only read the first one !! 😳
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