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can i have some vinyl application tips and pointers?
Ello ello from a Newbie !
Hi everyone
I’ve just joined your amazing forum… Rob from New Zealand here. I am a Graphic Designer who has done a bit of Sign design ….
I worked for an advertising agency for a few years and then freelanced … did some work with a friend who owns a sign company for a year or so …
I’ve designed a few vehicle wraps … one won a New Zealand National Sign Award in 2004.
I now work from home and design on a Mac … but I do some work on a PC for sign work e.t.c… I even got a cheap sign cutter last year to do some work for myself on my motorbike graphics and the odd job.
>> Well since I have very little ‘hands on’ experience with application of graphics ..
I am struggling to get "How to apply" vinyl to apply to a side of a van using a dry method…
I seem to get bubbles in the large areas of colour panels…
Everyone says ‘from the inside out ‘with the squeegee .. but I still get little bubbles everywhere …
I am using Oracal vinyl 751c and the best plastic squeegee you can get ..
I hold the vinyl out about 4 " away from the panel and try to squeegee as even as I can …
Can anyone give me a few pointers on the basics of vinyl application or a link to earlier posts .. angle of squeegee or tension of of application something ?
I certainly have a lot of respect for sign-writers and I just want get the application right.
I have just ordered some Comply to try and get a large panel of Tomato Red down before I apply type and a border down.
Thanks for any help or advice you can give me.
Cheers, Rob
Very impressed with your UK Sign Board forum
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16 Replies
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:welcome: Hi Rob!
Welcome to the boards.
(you’ve posted your ‘hello’ in the wrong forum 😳 there’s a specified forum to say hello in! But I’m sure one of the mods will move it for you!)
Marcella 😀
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Hi Rob, welcome to the boards, I presume you are using application tape on your vinyl when you apply it?
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mmm was more of HELP ME than a hello….
Yes I use app tape. Think I’m going to try using a felt squeegee and get someone to hold the other end of the graphic …. rather than trying to hold two metres by myself.
Using a middle hinge too!
Or maybe I should stick to my day job. Graphic design 😥
Some of my work 🙂
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Hi mate,
751c will get little bubbles, worse if the humidity is high.
I assume you are using a gold 3M squeegee?
You’ll find the comply will be easier, if not dearer. 3M 7725 is the same stock as 751c, but the adhesive is not as aggressive. You could give that a try. A few days in the sun and the bubbles will disappear on either material. You’ll also get bubbles on a highly polished surface. Make sure you clean with a wax remover for the best chance of a bubble free result.
Avery900 is easier to apply if you still have trouble. But you’ll still experience the same issues if you have high humidity.
I love your wraps. I was in NZ last October and was amazed at the amount of wraps I saw. I think you guys are far ahead of us here in Oz for that sort of thing, on a per capita basis. You must have a good price for your material.
What material do you wrap in? I hear Mactac is big in NZ.. I have been using Oracal 3951 but I’ve recently changed over to Avery EZY apply.
Good to have another australasian here. Welcome again.
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quote Shane Drew:Hi mate,
751c will get little bubbles, worse if the humidity is high.
Yep was 27 and muggy as when I did it. I did a ute a few months back and didn’t have any real trouble then. I live high up over looking the harbor in Wellington. Have a great view but windy and high humid conditions too.
I assume you are using a gold 3M squeegee?
Using a Platinum squeegee a gray/blue colour … pretty much the same as 3M
What material do you wrap in? I hear Mactac is big in NZ.. I have been using Oracal 3951 but I’ve recently changed over to Avery EZY apply.
Not sure about NActac .. never used it … some do I guess … but 3M Comply has the market here in NZ for wraps… well the mataerial anyway – having said that I’m concerned about the over lamination film some use on it, as it doesn’t fill the cross hatch pattern well and you see little air pockets.
3M has a strong hold on digital graphics here with supply of material and only “Approved Appilcators” meaning that 3 or 4 companies dominate the digital print… but others buy the stock and inkjet it themselves and laminate. The best way is liquid laminate over the 3M Comply, but this is costly.
Oracal 751 is used a lot for colour wrapps with digital …. High end use 3m and middle of the range use Mactac digital vinyl. The guys I work with prefer 3M Comply and they have done 747 planes and large trucks and buses with one-way vision and printed vinyl.
Good to have another australasian here. Welcome again.
Australasian 😮 mmm I prefer Kiwi but I know what you mean…
My Dad and my 3 sisters (he re-married) live in Bundaberg, Queensland 🙂
>> I have order the Tomato Red in #M Comply for Moinday so I hope this cure my large colour block in my muti layerd logo going on the side of a van ….
I think my app tape might be a problem too ….. (since I do very little actual vinyl work …. I started doing it to learn the "other side of things" and so I can do a few projects of my own.) I think my app tape may be a bit old now as it’s hard to get off the roll with-out stressing the app tape.
I might be getting bubbles in the app tape ? So I’m going to pay attention to this.
I did the back of the van no trouble but that was only 500mm max are at a time logo and text and an illustration type graphic.
Just the bloody 2000mm x 450 mother that the problem.
Since I do bugger all work … if the 3M Complay works I’ll stick with that for large blocks of colours …. but ists 30% dearer than the Oracal 751 🙁
Since I am really a Graphic designer …. this is a learning experience for me… my intention is not to become a sign writter but use it a tool combines with my graphic design to do some smaller projects on my own. Gives me a bit of freedom to try things with out the expense.
>>> Been thinking about my technque for squeegeeing the vinyl on … maybe I’m rushing it to much …. maybe I’m trying to squeegee too much material at one time …. might need smaller strokes e.t.c
Cheers, Rob
P.S. Since I can’t seen the video’s yet – I’ll have to wait and join up later and have a look at Rob’s video demo stuff. The NZ $ is weak aganist the UK pound so it’s really expensive at about 2.7 x = NZD 180.66 = GBP 65.00
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Hey Shane
I so happy so f’n happy …
I had a think about what I was doing …. looked at the shite paintwork on the van. S hit e is not allowd ! Bug ger me .
So I gave it a cut n polish with cutting compound … clean up with Iso…
and WOW …. no more bubbles not even one . ! …
So what did I do different ?
Well I still used 751 for the red background … for the bonnet of the van large logo background red.
Cutting the paint back got all the dirt that was in the top layer of the paint …
I also used a felt sqeegee and relaxed a bit more and took lighter strokes I admit I am a bit heavy handed at times ….
I guess the 3m comply on Monday with help with the rest of the job…
But for now I am so happy so happy …. it is 2.15pm on Sat avo … time for a beer I think :lol1:
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Interesting reply :lol1:
I’m an approved 3M applicator here too…. means diddly squat in truth. Not worth the certificate its written on.
I had 3M monster one of my customers that were avery users, convinced them to change over to 3M, then they got me fired, and put an approved 3M applicator in. When I wrote a rather pointed letter to the state manager, he realised his error, and apologized. Didn’t give me the contract back though 👿
Nothing is as good as 3M gold squeegee mate! (that’s my approved applicator voice talking now)
I have been using 3M comply material too, but it does not conform to deep recesses like Oracal or Avery. Proof of ths is that 3M market a spray on adhesive here that you spray into real deep (vito vans) recesses to aid its adhesion.
I stayed in QWellington for a night. Got of the Ferry at 5pm, sat in traffic for nearly an hour waiting to get to my accommodation in the City (Quest Atrium). Couldn’t get out of the place fast enough!!
Hooked on your Tui Beer tho. Got a 6 pack last night actually 😛
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Shane … you must have come to Welly when the bloody motorway extension was causing all the traffic trouble … or when a big game is on in town at the stadium …..usually it’s pretty good.
I live 10 min’s out of town on the hills over looking the harbor and when I go in to Wellington city I usually can get into the city centre to pick up my lady in 15 mins at 5pm coming out of town is is a wee bit slower 25mins max.
3M
Well to be honest I’ve been d -orked over by 3M about 10-15 years ago when I had my own screenprinting company …. I called them the Vinyl Mafia. Because they muscle in to clients direct and slagg off anyone elses product and then the b artists reccomend one of "the choosen few" approved 3M companies to come in and do the work.
They control all the bus shetlers in NZ’s main cities and sell the Ad space in them as Adshell.
If you are not with them ya against them …. so I use Oracal when I can.
If you are a 3M approved applicator then you have to use all their stuff oin a digital job including the company printing it … so the cost is huge … It is stopping my mates who owns a large sign company work… because he can’t get the materials cheap enough even at the discount they give him.
What I really mean is if you do a wrapp with 3M digital print it costs 4 times as much as using another vinyl such as Oracal and getting the job printed elsewhere and laminated. If you use 3M comply in NZ you must use their approved digital printing compannies other wise they come down on you…. so in effect they control work and how it is done …. I ask you you … who is the customer when you work with them !
I’ve never seen wrapps last long enough on the vehicles to claim any 3M warranty or anything [b] so 3M try to protect themselves with controls over who and how their product is used.
What other industry do you know that by passes you the customer and goes to you client and starts dictating how the work should be done.
This is just my experience with them anyway.
I agree Oracal is better for some work and with 3M comply use have to prep plastic and paint do this and that that Oracal doesn’t have to….
Mind you that is only my observation of my designs being applied by other guys.
All the wrapps I have had done are with 3M Comply and liquid over-laminate applied … all supplied by the 3M approved company called Admark based in Hamiton. They are good but real expensive to use.
I’d love to have a print and cut machine to do my own …. but I have to stick to my day job. Looks like my mate may finally get a digital printer at some stage this year… more work for me 😀
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Rob, you don’t have to tell me about 3M, although they do sound worse over there than here. A lot more competition here, and Oracal’s Qld & NSW distributor has the best after sales service in the country. Its just changed hands recently, and I’m not in total agreement with some of the ‘new’ policies, but 3M are still a distant 3rd in the way they look after their client base. Avery (Spandex) are even better than them (and I HATE 👿 Spandex here in Oz – they lack any loyalty to their client base at all.)
3M seem to think that they are still living in the ’80’s when they had some clout in the computer cut vinyl. I cut my teeth on the old ‘electrocut’ materials, but Oracal are head and shoulders above 3M’s ‘old technology’ now. The Avery900 leaves it for dead too in the more difficult applications.
I didn’t know adshell was 3M. That explains a lot. Very aggressive company here.
Your laws must be slighlty different than ours. The ACCC here ( http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/142 ) could argue that they are practising ‘restrictive trade’ arrangements, which is against the law here. May explain why 3M have more control over there.
Avery have the graphic designers ‘on board’ here, so when tenders go out, Avery usually is the brand required. Most of our corporate work that goes to tender is nearly all Avery.
3M lost their foothold a few years ago.
In digital print media, heaps of stuff coming out of europe and china, making 3M way too expensive now. They are stubborn though. Graphytip is getting a hold here, as well as the new air release Oracals, and combined with Avery EZ apply it leaves little room for 3M to make many demands at all.
I do a lot of tourism and corporate work with my print & Cut solvent machine, and 3M’s rep stopped calling years ago. Last time he called I was wrapping a vehicle in Oracal 3951. He told me that I’d be hard pressed to to the canopy on the vehicle, as 3M would struggle, so anything else would also struggle. I took great delight in laying that piece up while he watched. He said nothing, just shook my hand and left. Never seen him since 😛
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just curious … but why dry ? surely doing it wet will be a lot simpler if its a big area
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Rob, just reread your post.
The cleaner the surface, the easier for bubbles to escape. A poor surface, the tape will grab unevenly, thus trapping air.
Gordon, doing anything dry is the best option. If the surface have indents or crevices, water will build up there, and if it does fail, it will probably fail in those areas.
Comply adhesive, or air release adhesives were designed so dry application will be easier..
3M will void warranty here if they get a claim, and find it has been fitted with soapy water. They do authorise some slip solutions, but when push comes to shove, they can use the ‘wet method’ as a cause, and there is nothing you can do to contest it.
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i`ve never tried any of the air release adhesive ones , i read recently that theres a newer one that is basically chuck it on and smooth out , is it really that simple ? i dont really use vinyl too much , spent the last 5 years getting sidetracked by sublimation ( which made me ill ! ) and always used good old brushes before
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Rob welcome to the boards, glad to hear that you seem to have sorted your problem out. It really is all about preparation, don’t know if I would go as far as use a rubbing compound though,i only use that on vans that had graphics on previously and its left marks but a good clean with iso or meths will make a huge difference. Also pay attention to the application tape, apply and squeegee to ensure there are no bubbles. Using a felt squeegee is not really a good idea, they are designed for work where application tape is not used to protect the vinyl from scratching. You should make sure that your squeegee has a flat edge on it though, with use they tend to bow in the middle which can cause bubbles so should be sharpened to ensure they stay flat. With large areas it is always best to have some help if possible rather than try and struggle yourself.
Gordon there are a lot of advantages to applying dry rather than wet, with a wrap its not really possible to do a wet application because the water will find its way into every nook and cranny on the vehicle so the vinyl just wont stick. I agree with you that when you first start you will make less mistakes if applying wet but if you can learn to apply dry from the start it makes life that much easier overall.
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quote gordon bradshaw:i read recently that there is a newer one that is basically chuck it on and smooth out , is it really that simple ?
I think that is the New Mactac release you are referring to. I have not seen it yet, but I don’t imagine its that simple.. no. I’ll be seeing it at our sign show next month, so I suppose I shouldn’t really comment until then.
I’m told by my Rep that Avery have (or are about to release) a new digital print material too, with the glue taking 48 hours to fully adhere. No good to me, my clients will not wait 48 hours before they take the vehicle.
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Thanks guys …
Well I usually wash, dry and wipe down with iso. This works 995 of the time.
Sometimes even use a tack rag too!.
But this van paint has dirt embedded into the paint … feels like sandpaper… so cutting compound fixed that.
Used to better surfaces or should I say newer than that.
I’ve been thinking a clay bar might be faster than the cutting compound to remove the embedded dirt in paint.
3m have the designers tied up in NZ. I like Oracal 751… since I’m really on my own … I use what suppliers are local Spandex are only ex Auckland. I buy smaller quantities of whatever I need at the time.
I buy on quality not price. I’d like to do sign work rather than just design work such as print and design. I used to be a screenprinter about 10 years ago I sold my business due to my asthma getting bad with the solvents in the ink.
I like doing hands-on sign and graphics work on the side… only if it interests me … or I design the work first …otherwise I just won’t do it. I don’t need to do the sign stuff … really enjoy it if I’ve designed it though.
I’m want a print & cut machine …..
🙁Shane you said …I do a lot of tourism and corporate work with my print & Cut solvent machine..
Where are you based in Oz mate … and what equipment do you use ?
Cheers, Rob
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Logan City, Between Brisbane City and Gold Coast City. Right in the middle.
I have a Roland SC540ex that has been converted to Techink full solvent inks.
I do a lot of work for promotional (read:last minute) work for Warner Bros, and I donate a lot of signs to various groups (Currumbin Wildlife Animal Sanctuary, Matter Mothers Premature Baby Hospital) and I service a few Real Estate Agents in the area. I also have contracts for the top 2 Tour Operators in South East Queensland. I had the top 3 operators but I resigned last year from the 3rd one because of ‘issues’ with payment 😛
I design in Corel X3, but Cut in Sign Wizard 5.1.
I’m a sub contract printer for a few Advertising agencies, and I’m a one man band. My mum (68) and my dad (70) are my offsiders, but I don’t employ anyone else. I work with a few other sign shops as their contract print supplier, and I’ll pass work to them if I get too much.
That’s about all I can think of telling you Rob. Oh yeah, I’m taking the family to the south island of NZ in September. I’m into photography too (Nikon D70) so I love any opportunity to take photos, then print them to canvas or poly paper and hopefully sell some.
Other than that, I contribute to a stock photo site here in oz, and one in Canada.
I’m exhausted now :lol1:
Oh yeah, one more thing… I just about live here 😳 and I’m very shy
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