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Working from home……… and the council!
Well for the past 2 years I have been happily working from home, doing Web Design, PC Repairs and IT Support to SME’s. In the past 12 months I have added signwriting to my portfolio.
Now I dont pay any business rates on the premises, and neither do my parents who do their "daily" paperwork in the house…. never been a problem for them as they dont need to advertise like I do.
I once put a basic hanging sign outside on our fence at the front, and after a week I brought it back in, just in case the council spat their dummy over it.
I know a lot of you out there work from home. Do you risk advertising on your premises using banners, signs, boards etc or what? I really want to increase the sign business that I am doing – very profitable but more importantly I enjoy doing it. If I stick a board out on the path I will most likely get slaughtered for it… is there any other way of doing it without getting the council on my case? Its my parents property (I just use their masses of space to create an office and a workshop) so surely it is down to them to do what they like with their house, bugger the council! 🙄
Any advice??
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41 Replies
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Letter up a car/van (if you’ve not done so already) and keep it parked in the road out front. As it’s neither fixed to anything (property) nor requires ANY notice / planning it’s fool-proof.
AFAIK…so long as it’s taxed there’s not a thing anybody can do…including the council / police / DVLA.
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I’m not criticising here because I started from home without the council being any the wiser, but you are giving the impression that you want to have your cake and eat it.
Most councils will take a bit of a blind eye attitude to moderate business use of residential premises and I suspect that your parents activities fall into that category. A bit of paperwork on the kitchen table, or indeed in a dedicated home office, is unlikely to get them excited. However, something that involves a workshop, deliveries on a regular basis, customers vans coming and going, is a different matter altogether.
I’m a great believer in your "bugger the council" attitude but they do have the power to make your life a misery so it is best not to attract their attention.
My opinion is that you have the choice of either evading business rates and accepting that you cannot promote yourself at you parents address, or paying up and having more freedom. Even then, I’m sure that the council would want some input into the type and size of signs you put on your parents property in what, presumably, is still a mainly residential area.
I’m not sure about your "it is down to them to do what they like with their house" point of view. Certainly if my next door neighbour started a business from home I would want some restrictions placed on exactly what they could do, hours of business, noise generated etc etc.
In my case I was very discreet about what I was doing. I made sure that I got on well with my neighbours and ensured that if they had any reservations they would approach me first with their concerns instead of writing a letter of complaint to the council and bringing the full wrath of bureaucracy down on my head.
Something else to consider, have you looked into whether you will need planning permission for change of use for your workshop?
Decision time for you I think! 😀
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no decisions to make really. I do want to get a unit, but round where I live it is very very few and far between to get a decent 1000sq ft unit with a prominent location.
Rest assured I dont want to piss them off. Been there when I sold a couple of cars before on my drive. They accused me of setting up a motor trade business!!
Reckon Dave’s idea is best. Looking for a new van to soley run the signwriting from. Perhaps this is the most logical idea really.
Either that, or someone leaves one of my ideal locations soon and I get a unit to do all my work from.
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you are perfectly entitled to work from home without planning permission so long as:-
the building is a home first and business second (one bedroom in a 2000 sq/ft workshop does not get domestic rates)
you do not alter the external shape of the building
there is no significant increase in foot or motor traffic to your premises
there is no disruption to your neighbours outside normal working hours.
Where I am, advertising consent allows you to put a sign up not exceeding 1.2m square on any residential property so long as the business operates from that property and the sign is within local guidelines.
Contact your planning office, they really are nice people to deal with (despite rumours) they will help you out with what sign you are allowed to put up. But I dont think you would get away with neon in a residential area..!! -
I know a guy who used to operate from his garage in Burton Joyce near Lowdham. Very posh down there. He managed to trade from home for about 20 years until his son took over and moved it to retail premises. he only ever put a small vinyl on his front door, about business card size which directed regulars round the back. John is right though, you can’t expect to run a sign business from home and expand without concerns from neighbors. If you are serious about running a business like this you are better off in the right premises and then no one can put a spanner in the works. Sorry mate but rates are a sad fact of life and they are there for a reason.
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I see what you are saying, trust me nothing could be better if I could get the right place at the right time.
However, there are many on here who are very experienced and yet work from home too…. comon guys what are your opinions??
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Phil,
I’m not knocking it. If you can get way with it and keep your overheads down, great! I did it myself for years, but there does come a time when you have to expand. I take my hat off to anyone who does it. Just be careful in case the council catch up with you and want business rates off you back-dating ten years. My advice: If you are doing it from home keep a low profile mate! -
quote KARL WILLIAMS:Phil,
I’m not knocking it. If you can get way with it and keep your overheads down, great! I did it myself for years, but there does come a time when you have to expand. I take my hat off to anyone who does it. Just be careful in case the council catch up with you and want business rates off you back-dating ten years. My advice: If you are doing it from home keep a low profile mate!I agree with Karl……………..at some point you will want to expand your business beyond the constraints of your home and if you keep it discrete, you can get away without paying business tax during the ‘working from home’ period of your business.
Consider that when you do get business premises, business tax will be a big overhead to get used to paying. If your lucky, you may find a local farmer who will rent you out a agricultural building which if it’s not had a change of use to business use, you should get away with business tax during the next period of your business’s growth too. 🙂
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Well, I’ve just downsized from a1600 sq ft unit to my newly built double garage on the side of my house.
I can get vans in here but if too big I’ve space outside. It may sound daft to some but I’m not interested one bit in expanding I just want enough work for myself.
I can now put time aside to airbrush and pinstripe cos I’m not worrying about
huge overheads. I’m saving £800 a month straight off and obviously a % in water rates, electricity, business phone line, diesel.Also if I need to pop into work of an evening to get something ready for the next day I can easily.
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quote Neil Davey:It may sound daft to some but I’m not interested one bit in expanding
Not to me it doesn’t. This is as big as I want to get.
I often hanker after the old days, when it was just me and a girl, and life was a bit more relaxed.
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I agree John. I just want to slow down a little and enjoy things.
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Neil and John
I agree with you both – keeping the business reasonably small
is my goal too – so you can manage it and enjoy it.The last business I had got to a size where I was stuck behind the PC screen
and I stopped being able to do what I love – making and fitting signs.Money isn’t everything to me, just enough to pay the mortgage and the odd holiday.
Neil – consider the capital gains tax implications of using your garage for a business premises, personally I think it’s a great idea as long as you are aware of the long term position. 😀
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The garage was built to house my ongoing Triumph Spitfire restoration project. As it was being built I thought, hey, I’m renting a unit that due to the type of work I do is basically expensive storage for my applemac and plotter, vinyl and a desk as I work alot on site. The only plus was I could always get any size van in if I needed to.
Anyway I thought lets do a kind of mini ‘get out of the rat race’ and scale down and I have a bit more time on my hands to give to the Spitfire project and believe me it needs it 😕
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If you are serious about running a business like this you are better off in the right premises and then no one can put a spanner in the works. Sorry mate but rates are a sad fact of life and they are there for a reason.[/quote]
Sorry too. But if you want to play in the pond, you need to consider the costs. Theses include taxes. O.K., work from home, keep the profile low and do the volume of work to match the size of premises etc. But getting premises or bigger isn’t fair to the neighbors if access is limited or there are volumes of deliveries coming and going all day. As a tax paying signwriter (and believe me, tax paying it is something I don’t enjoy!) I resent home workers having a distinct unfair advantage over me when quoting on projects etc. Sorry but my opinion. You may also find that some companies will not deal with you unless you have business premises. This also is possible with VAT Are you VAT registered? If not, this may cause problems also. Many things to consider. I think you may well be happy with the status quo but consider premises before obtaining further work. At best, the neighbors can cause you problems, at worst the council wants back tax. If you have been working from home for some time, they will back date it. Additionally, they will also give the nod to Inland Revenue, so make sure all the other tax avenues are covered! We all hate taxes mate, but without them, this country wouldn’t run. Consider that when you are dumping your waste vinyl in the wheelie bin outside for the council to pick up.
Just my opionion.Peter 😕
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I am currently working from home and hate it !
Everything is constantly in a mess because there is not enough space for work and domestic life. Everything takes twice as long to produce. Deliveries are an absolute nightmare as I live in a no-through road ! ( Amari knocked over a lamp post last time they came! )
Half of customers won’t even take you seriously if they know you opperate out of your garage / spare room.
I am actively looking for a small workshop / unit (would even consider retail shop ). I don’t really want to have my cake and eat it too. I am happy to pay my fair share but I don’t feel business rates offer any value at all !
Maybe I’m wrong but I have the impression that once you have a business premises everyone is out to extort money from you.
Ok so at the end of the day we are all in the same boat, we all have to deal with these issues. If we want to progress we have to take the next step, but moving into a business premises is almost a bigger step than starting up in the first place.
After all anyone can make a profit working from home with no over headsI am not looking forward to having the overheads, but personally I know it will make me work harder, be more productive and generally allow me to produce the sort of work I know I am capable of ( really push myself creatively, which for me is what its all about ! )
Huh I dream of workshops and CNC routers at night how sad is that ! 😀
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we have worked from home for over ten years, never had any problems, we get on with our neighbors, and do work for the council! I am vat registered and don’t see it as unfair competition because I work from home. I do not want the hassle of employing staff, so why should I pay business rates for just what is essentially a one man/one woman business, I have been looking for a small unit recently but they just dont seem to be about for small concerns. if I rented or bought a unit over 1200 sq feet I would probably need to employ staff to cover the costs.
at the moment, I don’t owe any money, and so don’t
have to work if I don’t feel like it. It suits me well, I don’t have to travel to work and open up at a certain time.So working from home, can be OK, and you can make a good living, but as soon as you want to employ staff, then premises are needed.
Peter
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Phil
my wife worked from home for 10 years, operating an embroidery business in our detached double garage
obnoxious neighbours complained to the council who sent a man to check us out.
In the end he told us that as long as we were operating a "cottage industry" and not employing any non-family members, there was nothing they could, or would, do.
So carry on until you reach the level where you have to make decisions about the future
John
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We have just sold our house in South Essex and are looking at moving a little further North up the A12 (still with good access to London where most of our work is) where we have looked at a couple of properties with workshops in the back garden of around 800sq feet, which is a suitable size to relocate our business from the unit we are currently in. Want to do everything by the book to avoid any later hassle from the council, even though this will be a temporary measure until we get established in our new area and will then get another unit. Not sure what we will be expected to pay in the way of business rates, but I’m pretty sure that there are all sorts of other incentives to working from home that any good accountant will be able to help you with, as there is electricity, water, rent and other items that can be offset against your household bills and mortgage.
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Dave, you are correct. Business rates have no benefit at all for us. I have a unit in an off street area with 9 other lockups in a row. All small businesses with 1 to 5 employees. We have no street lighting, no road repairs on the lot, no rubbish collection ( we have to pay Biffa) and we look after our own security. Still, I pay £1200.00 a year taxes. Definitely this subsidises other areas of the council budget, but without business taxes we would all pay more. Including those who really cannot afford it.
I don’t like any taxes, pay as little as I can legally, and get on with it like everyone else. If people want to work from home that is fine. Good luck but you will never convince me they play on the same playing field as those who have premises and pay all the on costs associated with do so. Therefore, they have an advantage ( some say unfair) when quoting on projects.
Peter -
Me and aaron are both 26 and have been running now for 2 1/2 years.
We started off working from home (parents) and then finished work and worked from a double garage for a year.
We didnt feel like we made a impact working from home, no one took us seriously, like has been said looking for the neighours to have a pop and so on about a wagon pulling up… Ball ache.
So we went found ourselves a 1000sqft unit brand new in a secure compond for £650 a month all in… rates, electric, gas the lot… Bargin.
But still we find ourselves struggling to find work to cover bills and wages. This months been a killer no phone calls and quotes are not coming off. I think we need more volume and bigger companies with repeat orders.
(I think I need a bit more advice off you guys.)
Even though times are hard im still happier working and paying our way and hopefully things will turn around. Think Big!!!
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Before I moved into the shop I operated from my brothers garage for a bit and to be honest yes I could undercut nearly everyone, but I wasn’t in it for that. I wanted to grow it and make sure that in years to come financial stability was not a problem. I have found running it from here was the best move i’ve made. Staffing is my biggest problem though. Getting someone who wants to come to work to work is a nightmare.
The tax thing….sorry, but if you want to be bigger and better it’s tough.
We all have to pay taxes, and if you want extra you have to pay extra.
My rent here is only £80 per week. The rates are £50 per week, and as stated above we have to supply our own waste disposal. We can’t put a bin round the back because every sod fills it up for us, so every 2 weeks it costs us £130. for a skip outside the shop for the day. -
I have the same opinions as some on here. Taxes are ludicrous. Just missed out on a 900 sqft unit with roller shutter access – all inclusive with rates for £4600 p/a. 👿
Anyway. Yes I am VAT registered and I do get a fair bit of business. Signwriting is not my "key" business, however it seems to be more profitable… so at the moment I am happy to stay where I am until something good comes along. Fortunately we are on a main road and so access is good, large driveway helps too.
Good job as well, got a Scania HGV cab to do tommorrow afternoon :lol1:
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Karl, seems alot for a bin.
We pay Biffa £25,00 per pickup. (4 a month). Its a big bin too. Maybe shop around a bit. I am sure you have but it seems a bit steep to me.
Peter -
Peter,
As I said, a bin is not possible. When we close for the day the locals decide to fill it up for us and it’s not just a small amount of waste either. Yes, having a skip is expensive but I have found round here it’s the only way. -
Gotcha
Our bin is lockable but people seem to get them open. At least at night we can lock the compound and keep the scum out. (most of the time)
Peter -
We have a vets next door and they made this mistake. They even put a chain around it with a padlock. bastards cut the chain and still filled it up. Parasites!
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. Fortunately we are on a main road and so access is good, large driveway helps too.
Good job as well, got a Scania HGV cab to do tommorrow afternoon :lol1:[/quote]
😮 😮 😮 😮
Hope the neighbour is on holiday -
Just to clarify, In my area, 1500 sq tf is currently priced at around £15k-20k per year. rates inc.
I pay for my own commercial waste collection,
our customers park on our property, when calling or having vehicles stickered. Our pedestrian traffic is no more than say a household with 4 kids!
I cannot see any reason why not to work from home if you do it properly, have the space and it suits your circumstances.I don’t have a clue if we are undercutting anyone, and I don’t care, I sell our products for what I think is a fair rate, I don’t grumble if I am undercut,that’s the nature of any business. its only the really big companies that can enjoy the comfort of a cartel.
Peter -
Peter,
I couldn’t agree more. I am not digging at anyone who works from home. I have done it before at various times and may again in the future. The truth is however, consciously or not, when you are quoting on a job or setting up your criteria to allow you to quote on jobs, your overheads are artificially lower than someone who has increased overheads by working from a commercial location and paying council business taxes. This is a fact. If, like me, you have you prices set at what you feel is a fair margin with a win some maybe lose a few attitude, it is fine. But if you REALLY want to do a job say for the Kudos or a foot in the door, you are inevitably in a better position to do so.
As a personal opinion however, I still feel that any business should be paying commercial taxes to the council regardless of location. You can all shout at me at Sign UK this year I am sure but that is my personal opinion.
Peter -
Peter, I dont do cheap jobs to get my foot in the door, I do them for free,
as an introduction, like suppliers give out free samples.
I also pay all my taxes and dues, Just wondered why you think all commercial concerns should pay rates? they pay tax on everything, even employing people. just what do you get back for the rates you pay?
I do pay high private rates, and all I benefit is a weekly bin collection, which i now have to sort into different materials so the council can put it in the landfill site anyway.Peter 😀
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Peter Not wishing to steal this thread completely before the mods go crazy 😕
I feel that all business owners should contribute locally to the community. Not just through charity or other things but with a payment via taxes to assist the council in running the community. I don’t think we should discuss the merits of council operations in this forum as my last comment invites. Lets have another beer at Sign UK and put it to rights then my friend.
Peter -
quote Peter Mindham:Lets have another beer at Sign UK and put it to rights then my friend.
PeterSound,
Im all for it.
Opinions sminions, its all togas anyway 😀Peter
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quote Peter Mindham:If you are serious about running a business like this you are better off in the right premises and then no one can put a spanner in the works. Sorry mate but rates are a sad fact of life and they are there for a reason.
Sorry too. But if you want to play in the pond, you need to consider the costs. Theses include taxes. O.K., work from home, keep the profile low and do the volume of work to match the size of premises etc. But getting premises or bigger isn’t fair to the neighbors if access is limited or there are volumes of deliveries coming and going all day. As a tax paying signwriter (and believe me, tax paying it is something I don’t enjoy!) I resent home workers having a distinct unfair advantage over me when quoting on projects etc. Sorry but my opinion. You may also find that some companies will not deal with you unless you have business premises. This also is possible with VAT Are you VAT registered? If not, this may cause problems also. Many things to consider. I think you may well be happy with the status quo but consider premises before obtaining further work. At best, the neighbors can cause you problems, at worst the council wants back tax. If you have been working from home for some time, they will back date it. Additionally, they will also give the nod to Inland Revenue, so make sure all the other tax avenues are covered! We all hate taxes mate, but without them, this country wouldn’t run. Consider that when you are dumping your waste vinyl in the wheelie bin outside for the council to pick up.
Just my opionion.Peter :-?[/quote]
Rented a premises for almost 20 years Peter and I didn’t think of it as playing. Always paid my taxes. Yes I’m VAT registered. I’ve built up a good customer base. I don’t have lots of deliveries everyday. I sort my waste and recycle most of it. I never resented anyone for having a different overhead to me, it’s not a level playing field!A fair bit of my work is off the premises as I am a Signwriter (paint/mahl stick etc.) so a unit was always a bit of a waste of money.
Neil -
quote Peter Mindham:Our bin is lockable but people seem to get them open. At least at night we can lock the compound and keep the scum out. (most of the time)
PeterYou must have a better class of scum than the scum we have around here. At least your "scum" care enough about the environment to dump the rubbish in a bin (albeit yours) whereas our local "scum" dump it anywhere ( I wish to point out that my suggestion in another thread that I go out at and dump my waste at night time in a farmers field is of course my idea of humour and not to be taken seriously ). 🙄
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Swings and roundabouts. If I took on premises in a decent location, I dare say I’d get more work which would pay for it. As it is, I have virtually no overheads, but that doesn’t mean I will lower my prices to suit. If you want a level playing field then we all need to have exactly the same overheads, and that is never going to happen. Most work is worth about the same, regardless of your rates. Don’t assume that everyone who works from home is prepared to work for nothing, they aint.
I think VAT registration is more important to customers than premises. That’s my experience anyway.
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I have recently pulled out of the licensed trade in scotland because the wee local pub could no longer sustain the overheads of rates, insurances, prs, etc.etc. The No Smoking law, imposed by the people who collected all this money did nothing to help, and this scenario will soon arrive South of the Border. This was probably the final nail in the coffin for me. I had bought my equipment a few years ago, just to tide me over as a hobby and to "keep me out of the pub", albeit from the other side of the bar. I got an offer on the pub and decided to pursue the signmaking as my main source of income. I considered premises, but for a 1000sq ft unit in the area which has the cheapest private housing in the UK (Lochgelly), and subsequent business connotations, I was £500 + rates + insurance + waste collections etc etc. Before long, the first £2000 per month was lost in outgoings. I work from home and am completely legit. I can produce signs as good as anyone locally ( with the help of the boards) and if I can keep my overheads down then that surely is a business advantage not dissimilar to having a UKSG discount, or a friend who can fabricate posts etc., and therefore if you choose to spend your income on premises and all that goes with it, don’t be aggreived at others who choose to use their initiative. By contrast, my advantage is lost by not having a receptionist answering calls all day, or by the fact that I cannot manufacture a 40′ sign in my garage etc. Life is all about choices. Make yours and live by them.
jim
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I refer to my last post. Cheers mines a bitter.
Peter -
Peter,
Look forward to having a beer with you and all the others at SignUK.
Cheers :drink4:
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Just a thought to add in that if you get a unit on a trading estate etc. then the business you will secure from your new neighbours will go a long way to paying the rent. I’m in a row of 10 small units and the margin from the other companies and the landlord made the unit almost cost neutral last year.
Cheers
Macky -
quote Macky D:Just a thought to add in that if you get a unit on a trading estate etc. then the business you will secure from your new neighbours will go a long way to paying the rent. I’m in a row of 10 small units and the margin from the other companies and the landlord made the unit almost cost neutral last year.
Cheers
MackyI thought about that too!
Must say, looks like I have opened a can of worms here. I am going to stay quiet and not speak to the council regarding putting up a sign. However, instead of parking my signed up car on the drive, I am going to park it on the front of our drive (big grassed area then pavement then road) – wont be an obstruction and it might just work well.
In the meantime, I will keep hunting for premises….
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Just a bit of advice for anyone looking for premises. Speak to you local council about managed workspace. I moved into 400sqft centrally heated unit October 2005 costs me £217 a month including rates, alarmed, all buiding repairs and free business advice. All I pay extra is gas and electric. 400 sqft is not big enough but far bigger than most of you will have at home and like has been said before I have found having a true business address helps get better business so much so that I am hoping to be moving into 1200 sqft within the next month or 2.
Moving into premises certainly has helped me. In my opinion all good businesses grow but having proper bases helps grow faster.
Just my thoughts
Gary
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