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cut vinyl or print and cut
hello everyone,
need your opinion on something.
anyway here’s the situation:we are in need of a new plotter, the one we have right now is a senior citizen (summa D760) and we are looking for a new one.
knowing that we need a solution for our cut vinyl for 6 months now i’ve talked to many people about possible solutions.
this one wich stuck with me:
the guy said (being a signmaker himself):
i would not invest in an plotter anymore, i would get myself a print and cut machine to do al the cut letters.the pros he said were:
you have one vinyl (white) insted of 50
you get less shipping cost per roll
cheaper reproduction of pantone colors and such
no fitting colors onto each other resulting in faster applications
etc..etc…
i than tested the view on other people and asked the downsides of such a way of working.they said:
color life expectancy is not as good as with cut vinyl
you need signs of at least 2 or 3 colors to be able to compete
you never get solid colors always a grid of some sort
you need to laminate everything wich costs time and money
etc… etc….
so i would like to get your perspective on this one.
not that i’m buying a print/cut machine or a new plotter in the near future, but i would like your opinion on this matter as it seemed to make alot of sense to me,mabey the guy is talking about signmaking a decade from now or the evolution in wich he thinks signmaking is going.
me i’m not sure so that’s why i ask you all to give your opinion on a topic as this one
thx in advance
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14 Replies
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Good thread Dennis. I have had similar thoughts about this myself.
We use our Cadet to print and cut signs that are multicoloured or that require a specific pantone colour. Safety signs are another good example. The next logical step would appear to stock only white vinyl and print all the colours.
The Cadet is perfectly capable of producing a high quality gloss finish which is every bit as bright and blemish free as ordinary vinyl (though as the machine ages and the heads wear – this may no longer be the case I fear)
In practice you can do this for some signs but there are questions about durability if you aren’t also laminating. If you are laminating there are additional materials cost and time involved.
Normal cut vinyl can be used straight away whereas print and cut should really be given time to dry (although I have been succesful in printing and cutting then weeding and taping without allowing any time for drying – the vinyl is still soft – but taping is possible and I have managed to use it straight away with no apparent ill effects).
So the only real issue as far as I’m concerned is duarability. If you wipe a print with a solvent tar remover the print will come off. If you abrade a print it will scratch so the only guaranteed way to get around the durability issue is to laminate. Perhaps a print and cut device could be designed that sprays a fine quick drying film of clear laquer on the finished print prior to the cutting operation.
I think it will be a long time before cut vinyl dissapears (if ever) but your suggestion is food for thought for many types of signs that are made in cut vinyl.
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I dont think cut vinyl will ever disapear to be honest…
what about text on glass, or even glass etch?
then there is the reflective vinyls and speciality films.
as has been said, the durability issue the the main factor here and i doubt, regardless to developments with printers over the next few years we will see any real improvements.
i think developments these days seem to be focusing more on speed, print rez, drying times etc as oppossed to the durabilty issues.having a print and cut machine certainly is the way forward though, we would be lost without ours for sure….
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We need both Dennis.
Apart from the issues mentioned above, we have to laminate the majority of our prints and it doesn’t matter to us whether we put it back into a printer/cutter or a pure cutter the next day for the cutting operation.
In fact sometimes it would make a bottleneck in our printing if we had to stop that work to cut something out.
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cut vinyl probably won’t dissapear for a long time to come, for instance etched glass effect, reflective, etc…
but i’ve always looked at the durability fact with 2 eyes:
one looking and seeing a sign to be proud of for years to come and one looking at the wallet thinking it would be great to replace the sign every few years with a bright shiny new one.
it’s like with flags, there guaranteed for 3 months, after that they become to dirty and faded to be called positive image building.
since we can’t keep our hands over the flags to protect it from dirt and uv flags are a great way to keep the cash flowing.with vehicle livery for instance we can go up to 12 years durabilty, it’s great on one end because you know that your work will look like new for years to come and build a good rep with your customers but it also makes you think
how long will vans and cars last? isn’t that overkill to have a colorguarantee for even 8 years?
in figures:
you make a customers car look great for 8 years guaranteed.
so that car won’t be relettered for another 7 years with 300 days in a year to work that makes 2100 customers with at least one car to keep buisness going on a daily basis.it’s not reality i know but it does make you think that when you give them a sign and say "see in 8 years mate" you are cutting your one fingers insted of striking a deal with the client to replace the sign, car, banner or whatever every 3 years or so to keep their signs looking like new
it’s just a thought 🙂
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dennis i know what your trying to say….but in reality its like everything else, a washing machine, kettle any other thing that needs replaced….it goes around in full circle, cause everyone needs to replace things at different times, similar to the sign business 😀
nik
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Dennis,
I too know what you are saying, but….
Most of our work is on vehicles, usually bought on three year leases, so longevity tends not to be an issue.
We will normally use a 5/7 year calendared, unless curved panels, rivets, or some other reason dictates something better. In fact the reason for using a higher grade of vinyl than strictly necessary tends to be getting the right colour rather than anything else.
We also have to consider colour matching for accident damage repair and I am not convinced that a printed colour will be the same shade after three years.
As for signs, although a shorter replacement cycle is tempting, I think they should last ten years and if you sell anyone something with a lower life they may consider your product to be sub-standard and go elsewhere for the renewal work.
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Well Done! Dennis for an interesting thread
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quote John Singh:Well Done! Dennis for an interesting thread
thank you, just trying to add some value to the site
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yep it is a good thread dennis …..ill second… that intresting reading
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hello all
nice to see trade people thinking longer term,
1 dennis your dealer would not be a roland dealer by any chance, the reason i ask that is roland are the only manufacturer to still make a print and cut machine,
2 there are many down falls with print and cut with one machine, i to many years ago wanted print and cut in one machine, until i got the edges of my prints curling up, could not cut while printing and print while cutting,
3 if you buy a cutter with optical it can work with any printer you buy and also any number of printers, always remember printers have a far shoerts shelf life that printers, and also devalue far quicker, so less resale or trade in value,
4 you are bang on about uv problems, this is from my point of view only thought jobs i have done with many different types of ink, but i find oil based ink far more UV stable than light solvent, i have done jobs with mutoh oil based ink which are still ok after 3 years but jobs i have done with light solvent have droped yellows and reds in 18 mouths,
please not this is from out jobs and our uses read into this what you can,
i am only trying to give advice as inks dont switch my switch if you know what i mean,5 vinly wont total vanish, but 15 years ago i could make a good living out of driving a brush, not any more, one leason i have had to learn is dont be afraid of change, or you can get left behind,
6 i also could never have earned as much as i have with a bush, as with vinyl over the years i have been able to turn over far more work, and with adding a printer i amsure that will also be the cases, but if you go print and cut, dont be affaid of a printer and a cutter with optical as it could be well worth the leaning curve
hope this has added to the interest
regards
alan flynn
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Nicely put Alan.
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thank you john
my typing gets better the more ceap wine i drink, tescos do weel out of me,
regards
alan flynnps when they are shut i have been known to drint the light solvent ink, just does not look to good in the morning
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sorry dennis
i amm going to finnish my drink and go to sign making land, but one thing i would say if you are looking to invest a cnc routher is always worth a look mainly because they hold therse value far more than printers and also they are not just a sign making tool, ie if you get feed up with sign making, with a cnc you can go into kitchen making van ply linningmirror design, were do you want me to stop,
anyway with all theses ideals hopefully you will live untill you are 400 and become a very rich man and rember me inyour willthanks for sutch an interesting thread
regards
alan flynn -
thanks for the tip,
i might have put it different then i meant.
with print/cut i did not mean a hybrid machine perse two seperate machines also work just as well. (and mabey even better)it’s still interesting to know that uv i somewhat tricky, it’s a shame i can’t post pictures in this thread but i to had some weird fading experiences.
one is a lightbox mounted with a full colour backlit foil, printed with full solvent inks and after a year or so it’s totally faded, i was lucky that the client had taken out the acrilic by hand then broke it in 2 then sort of put it back together again with the electric wire going in threw the front (bending the acrilic) so it would look even more discusting than just the fade……..lucky me huh 🙄
then i also have banner printed with eco-plus witch after 2 years still looks like new
mabey the light box is facing south? mabey full solvent is just more scratch resistant than eco inks and not more uv resistant.
thinking of this has anyone seen uv inks after a few years? how do they hold up to the sun?
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