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Large fascia sign fitting advice
GrassHopper requests advice from the Masters – I have been ‘fortunate’ enough to have been awarded a job of supplying and fitting a 6m x 1.2m sign. The substrate is made up of 2 sheeets of 3m x 1.2m 5mm foamex with a panatrim frame.
The sign is made ready for fitting on Saturday. This is where advice is requested. The frame is to be fitted to a building which is clad in profile sheeting.
Whats the best way to fit the panatrin? I won’t be able to pick up any structural steel so I was planning on pop riveting the frame. Any one been here before?
Just to add to it all this, it is the first time I have fitted a fascia sign and this building is on the Thames estuary in the middle of the marshes so just hope no wind on saturday
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19 Replies
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Dave, fixing the sign is no problem unfortunatley keeping it there may be.
5 mm foamex 1200mm deep on a clad building is not to be advised,
The wind will be able to get behind and could distort the substrata enough to push it out of the frame. I would hesitate to fit this size on a flat wall.Sorry to be negative, but at least you are now aware of what may happen
Peter
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Solution to make the best of it, make sure you fit a hanging rail, top and bottom, the centre is properly jointed to prevent wind ingress, and use end springs.
Peter
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have you already priced for this job mate? i guess yes but can you up the cost a little? or fixed now? just asking so i can best advise 😀
peter is right though… you may have some bother
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Ah! Why have I got that sinking feeling?
Rob- Unfortunately it is a fixed price job which I don’t think I will be able to alter as it sounds as though the error is 100% mine.
Peter- I have made the sign with hanging strips top and bottom. I have also glued 10mm wide strips of foamex edge on vertically to the back of the board at 600mm centres to give it some rigidity.
Any other ideas to recover the situation?
Pop rivet the frame to the cladding sound ok?
for future reference what should I have made the sign from?
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What I would suggest, which may cut your margin but will prevent redoing the sign before the end of winter, fit a sheet(s) of ali 1mm or less even galvanised steel on the back of the frame to seal it from the wind.
To attach to the cladding pop rivets are fine, but self tapping/drilling screw are available, I would predrill the panatrim and sheet first though.Peter
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Dave,
many years ago before I became involved in the sign industry I faced the same problem. I’d bought a sign of exactly the same size and spec from a local sign company which I fitted myself to an industrial unit with corrugated cladding. Fitting the frame and the boards (which had hanging bars) wasn’t a problem but the boards did want to pop out when it was windy, as Peter has warned. I overcame the problem by fixing rough sawn timber battens in the troughs of the cladding to bridge the space between the cladding and the rear of the boards. The timber was perhaps 2″ x 1″ and i fixed double sided tape to the timber to give the needed support across the back of the sign. It worked a treat and the sign is still there 10 years later, having been re written by the new owners. I can think of other ways to do it today, but this will be relatively inexpensive. perhaps £40/50, though it will take you longer to fit. Good luck
Dave
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Dave & Peter
Many thanks for your assistance. Both sound like good solutions to the problem.
To be honest until you guys raised it I didn’t twig the problem of the courgations letting the wind in behind the sign. You wouldn’t believe what I numbnut I now feel.
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No prob dave,
it is always better to seek advice if you are unsure, thats what the boards are about.
We have all been numbnuts. Live learn move on…
Peter -
Sorry – but I have to disagree with some of the advice offered. 😕
The reason signs get pulled out of frames is not because the wind gets behind and blows them out… it’s because the wind passes over the front of the sign creating a low pressure area (just like the air over the top of an airplane wing) the difference in pressure is what causes the panels to pop out – in effect, they are sucked out. 😮
That said – the solution is to use a bottom rail as well as a hanging rail just as was already suggested. I would also fasten the panels to the cladding were they join (they can still expand outwardly to the edges in sunny weather).
I honestly don’t believe there is any advantage in trying to block off air ingress to the back of the sign – far more air passes over the front on stormy days.
Scotland is renowned for it’s storms, but I have had a good many signs fitted this way that have survived intact even on days when there has been structural damage caused by high winds
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Peter – I know it happens to all of us at some time, but doesn’t make you feel any better. I will probably go for for fitting a back to the frame as you suggested because the only thing worse then feeling a numbnut is knowing you have done a crap job. Probably lose money on the job doing this but to me thats better then having an unhappy customer.
By the way have you considered changing your hairdresser???
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Phill you are right.
pressure differential sucks the foamex out.
But if you put a panel behind the frame the presure differential is reduced. When I say the wind gets behind its not the issue.
We all know a plane flys cos the wind lifts it up. Whether it sucks or blows dont matter 😀
as long as it stays up therePeter
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dave said
“By the way have you considered changing your hairdresser???”My hairdresser is sat next to me!
Peter
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Phil – thanks for your advice, your logic makes good sense, Bernoulis Theorem I believe its called. Your suggestion may save my bacon without taking a hit on the job.
Peter – Apologise to Mrs N, the amount of hair pulling I have done lately I may need to visit Mrs N for a tinsel special!
Dave
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anytime Dave 😎
Lynn
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I’ve got an idea (-)
Why not install the worlds first “ground effect” sign. 😀
Using the principal employed by Formula one racing cars – why not design the back of the sign to act like an inverted aerofoil. Wot you need to do is design a channel for the air to pass behind the sign (between the panels ands the building) – Small deflectors to the left and right of the frame should reduce the airflow across the front of the sign. This way, the sign will be sucked onto the cladding of the building instead of out of the frame. The higher the wind, the greater the panels will stick to the building.
Is that not brilliant 😀 😀 😕 😳
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Great idea Phill, get the dragons to back it!!
Peter
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I reckon it’s possible to fit a hanging strip to all 4 sides. The 2 ends would need to be removable but it could be done. That’d stop the bugger flying out.
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I think the best solution would be to start with the correct substrate itself. Using 5mm Foamex at this size in this way is always going to create problems & that’s not taking into account of the Foamex going brittle in a couple of years. I’d use Dibond/Reynabond for this type of sign with a plate over the join on the back. Even rebated Acrylic with panel locks to reverse would be a simpler solution.
Kev
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Thanks for the advice Kev, lesson learnt
Dave
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