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Printer/Plotter Purchase Advise
Sorry for repeating this post. I posted this in the Software/Vinyl Cutter forum by mistake.
Hello all.
I am starting to research some color printer/plotters for a future purchase. Signwarehouse sells a 62″ PrismJet/Graphtech FC5100-150 combination. The PrismJet is actually a Mutoh Falcon Outdoor with their label on it.
I like the idea of having a cutter separate from the printer but I don’t have any experience with large format color printers, so any comments would be helpful.
Here is a link to the system I am refering to: http://www.colorwarehouse.com/pj_extra_c.html
Thank you,
Bryan
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15 Replies
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Hi Brian, This is only my opinion but i wouldn’t bother with Eco solvent inks unless you don’t mind spending more money on a laminating machine.
The way to go is full solvent, believe me i have learned the hard way with my Mutoh Rockhopper 62″. I have just spent another few thousand on a lam machine, not through choice i might add but necessity.
L J
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Thanks for the info. I don’t mind going the lamination route if necessary. I wanted to avoid having to deal with ventilation hassles. I was also told that I could use a clear coat.
My main concern is the quality of the machine and the print quality as compared to other machines. This appears to be a better deal then some of the other systems out there, but sometimes you get what you pay for.
The 62″ maybe overkill but I thought it may open up some wholesale work.
Other then having to laminate, are you happy with Mutoh?
Thanks again,
Bryan
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we have a small JV3 (solvent based) in a small room with a Filtration unit that blows back in the same room. It is fine as all the junk is removed from the air.
at the other place the JV3 blows to the outside, but the rooms stinks a bit.
Another manufacturer who reads these boards has CitroSOL inks, apparently they smell of Citrus fruits.
I suggest full-solvent to anyone. The smells have been improved over the years.
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the citrus smelling ones are not as good as the solvent. they come in midway to eco-solvent and solvent.
i agree solvent is best for the sign maker of today.
in my veiw a hundred pound for two good extraction fans is better than the headaches etc further down the line.
eco-sol or solvent you still need the fan/s. just one ink is more powerful than the other. -
quote Robert Lambie:the citrus smelling ones are not as good as the solvent. they come in midway to eco-solvent and solvent.
i agree solvent is best for the sign maker of today.
just one ink is more powerful than the other.
Rob, and does a better job.
Bryan, That clear coat is actually made in the USA usually called Frog Juice, used to be good on the original Eco solvent inks but now we have Eco solvent Plus inks it is not so good, hence the laminator.
L J
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Thanks for all the feedback.
I guess the next question would be if I go the solvent route, which machine(s) should I consider? What width seems to make the most sense?
Bryan
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I would suggest the 54″ would be better for you as i think the 62″ is probably too big for my usual work but the 36″ is too small. So i think either the 48″ – 54″ as all suppliers sell material up to 54″ wide but not many sell 62″.
Sorry cannot recommend make of printer but i know a few on here have gone for the “cadet” or it’s big brother.
L J
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Brian,
I can’t lend as much advice as some of the pros in here, but I just bought a Roland SP-300 a couple weeks ago and have already decided that I will also be purchasing a laminator, which is a better idea anyway. IMHO The frog juice will simply not suffice on large graphics, actually, I probably wont use it on anything except short-run cheap decals/stickers. The spray has left my prints looking dull and I’ve also had some problems with using it with transfer tape pulling my print off with the clear.
I don’t really see the big deal with eco-solvent or solvent because everyone seems to agree that no matter what ink you use, it should be laminated anyway, for outdoor use anyway. The eco-sol unit that I have emits almost no odor at all and wouldn’t agree that ventilation is an issue. Good luck with your purchase!
Doyle
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forgot to mention that part, frog juice attaches itself to the print but even low tack application tape sometimes pulls off both the frog juice & print even after soaking the app tape with soapy water for an hour. Hence the laminator, sick of reprinting, wasting material, ink & labour.
L J -
there is much more uses for these machines other than vehicle graphics!
even at that, for short term wraps etc you dont need to laminate, so on that alone, which ink is gonna last longest with road grime, car wash chemicals and the like. my vote is firmly on “solvent prints”as has been said, the prints have come away on tapes etc. this “maybe” because eco-ink sits on the surface of the vinyl while solvent penetrates the surface and gets a bite. this for me is the real reason abrasion damage is less with solvent prints.
vehicle wraps laminated and applied in deep recesses… same again.. the lamination is holding the ink, not the base vinyl. but whats holding the ink on the base vinyl with Eco ink? not much, as its sitting on the surface. i am NOT knocking Eco-machines, we are all using same machines just re-tubed/badged etc I’m just saying there is a bit more too it than just, why bother, prints need laminated anyway.
for the record, i am far from an expert, these are just my veiws 😀
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Thanks for all the good advice. I see I have a lot to look into.
I did not know about the ink bonding (Roland’s site states their ecosol inks aggressively bonds to coated and uncoated media.)
If I go for the solvent option any recommendations on brands. I didn’t see any dealers for the “cadet” in the US.
BTW this site is a godsend. I hope I can contribute in the near future.
Bryan
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The Cadet and any other solvent based Roland is a aftermarket converted machine. Its realtively easy to convert the oem machines to solvent and if you do buy one of the converted machines , it can in turn run both solvent and ecosolvent inks (which are also solvent based) – all the inks running thru these machines are solvent based – its just a matter of what solvent is used and what it does. If you buy a non converted machine you CANNOT run more agressive solvent inks thru it.
Despite the advertising claims , solvent/eco sol inks do not soak into vinyls , they flash off the and allow the inks to dry on the media and in some small way disolve a microlayer of the top of the vinyls and key the inks to this. There are many materials one prints on that are not ever affected by the solvent – like papers and other plastics , fabrics and so forth and thus any claimed advantage of agressive solvents vs light solvents is negated.
The PRIME advantage of using aftermarket inks is not normally the durability of such in the odd case where the graphic is subject to harsh conditions , it is the COST of those inks , typically 1/3rd of the OEM inks (and often improved colour gamuts and the ability to use a bulk ink system)
Be aware that some converted machines use cartriges that are no cheaper than OEM ink carts both of which IMHO are outrageously priced. Currently OEM inks go at about $350 a litre and aftermarkets at $100.
There are many reputable aftermarket solvent ink suppliers unlike a while ago where you ran the risk of a destroyed machine with some of the inks.
Robert – I know you advocate solvents and most likely its the right way to go for you , however 2 of the 3 reasons for using it are not available to you , namely a bulk ink system and pricing , Its a BIG problem we face here in using OEM carts as those that do have bulk systems and cheap inks can undercut quite radically.
A lot depends on what level of printing you will be doing , if your machine is going to be printing continuously , day in and day out , I would go with a solvent printer but NOT one that uses carts – the savings will be substantial and cos the machine is working almost continuously , maintenance is not an issue at all. If you are printing sporadically , then an Eco sol or a low maintenance solvent machine is your best bet , you want to switch on and print without going thru cleaning cycles etc. The other issues are profiles and RIPS.
Ink droplets are teeny and the patterns and overlaps etc determine colours – the RIP is actually the heart of the machine , it tells the printer what to do to get a colour etc (the printer only prints 7 colours) so what you hagve to determine is whether the RIP fits in with your design package and workflow and if it uis supported with various profiles for various media(especially the media you want to use)
The profile is the “recipe” for printing containing stuff like how much ink to put down , colour correction curves , feeds and so forth. The correct profile allows you to print well and make money from day 1. Fine detail is also a function of inks , the more aggresive an ink is the less it just sits and drys off , if an ink dot is dissolving media or softening it , it then spreads and dots start overlapping and this dot gain becomes a problem and often very fine detail is lost – its actually a problem with solvent and ecosol compared to say a HP printing on paper.
The digital print media game is a circus right now , every tom dick and harry touting their media as the bee knees and a zillion small cos importing from china and radically undercutting the bigger guys , and there are not just vinyls to print on , various papers , boards , polysilk , fabrics , meshes , contravisions , backlits , blockouts , banners , pvcs and so forth. IF you do NOT have workable profiles for these and your specific machine – you are in for a frustrating time. We generally print on premium tried and tested products and send most of the stream of digital print media reps knocking on our door packing. Often you may get an acceptable print on cheap stuff but at either a durability cost or have to drop speed substantially. Speed is king in digital printing if you are doing moderate volumes , ACCEPTABLE output is the key here , claimed speeds of 300 sq ft an hour are useless if the output is not saleable. Ideally you want to take YOUR files to any manufacturer and STAND THERE while they print examples of what YOU want on YOUR choice of media. If this cannot be done acceptably or they refuse – pass !!!
We use a Roland SC 540 Soljet Pro II ex and find it ultra reliable and it outputs stunning graphics , we have had ours almost 2 years and no hassles whatsoever – however we dont print huge volumes on a dialy basis.
The newer version of this machine has the ability to print white which may or may not be VERY important. This means that on clear , you can print full colour graphics unlike thos that dont print white. the white evidently is NOT opaque enough to to print on dark colours , but its not much of an issue as you can print the dark on white material. If you get one of these you can have it either fitted with white and only lose Lc and LM and still have a speedy CMYK machine or get it with 6 colours and convert after.
Roland have a new ink out which they claim is as good as any other , it remains to be seen if it is , but if it is so , then there is no advantage to buying a converted machine. Many other machines are available in your neck of the woods and you have a vast choice. A lot of the lesser known machines coming from china are excellent and VASTLY cheaper than some of the well known offerings and are reliable too. I have just been to a trade show and saw a machine in action , printing high speed , 2.2 m wide with cheap solvent inks with excellent quality – most impressive was the fact that the supplier was letting the print drape over the floor as a carpet and the attendees of the show were walking on it as it came off the machine. The price of this machine (no cutter) was not much more than a Versacam!!! -
Thanks Rodney for taking the time to post thorough explanation.
Are you using EcoSol or Solvent inks in your Roland?
Any opinions on the Muthoh Machines?
Bryan
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I use Eco sol – and never had a return on any graphic for any reason in 2 years. Most of my printing is done for my in house applications and mostly its big quantities of complex die cut stuff , with extreme detail and often extremely fine text and so forth , but we also do big stuff like billboard, banners, vehicle wraps and graphics and so on.
I don’t know the Mutoh machines at all , Roland seem to have a lions share of the print and cut market. -
Thanks again to all for the great info. It has been a great help.
When we decide to take the plunge and make a purchase I will post.
In the mean time if anyone wants to comment on any other brands, it would be most appreciated.
Bryan
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