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Doming Machines – info request
Hello everyone. This is my first posting.
I am hoping I can get some advice regarding doming machines.
I am about to purchase my first machine. Ultimately I would like a MDS Econ 1 but I think it may be out of my price range (yet to confirm pricing).
I have been told there is another machine from cammda which uses cartridges. Has anyone purchased or does anyone know anything about these machines?.
Can the cammda machine dome multiple(10) labels in one shot?. -
18 Replies
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I tried a Cammda set up and had little joy. I just didnt like the cartridge system at all and had a lot of problems with it in terms of the carts and wasteage or inconsitent delivery and wasnt all that keen on the controller /dispenser unit either which seemed over complex for our needs. Our local agents who sold us the system didnt really know what was going on or werent familiar with it either , that didnt help much so we returned it.
We eventually settled for the DOPAG unit which are manual systems with variable stroke (shots) and mixing rates and use the pressure pots supplied. We use a small vacuum pump to pull a vacuum in the individual chambers to degass the 2 parts and then set the mixing ratio (1:4 to 1:1) , there is a metering block , a static mixer and a manual lever system to dispense (can be made automatic). We dome so many variable things that a manifold system wouldnt work for us. The system is ultra reliable , we use a long tube after the static mixer with a dispensing needle and a pinch valve to manually dispense the shot. Our operators are skilled in terms of just how much to pull for a perfect shot. One could use a 10 shot manifold I suppose with these systems.
The savings over carts are substantial , raw materials are about a 1/4 of the price of carts in our part of the world and we can change mix ratios easy (impossible/difficult on a cart/pneumatic systsem) as well as the forulations.
We have a few machines as we use hard and flexible epoxy and hard and flexible urethanes.
Costs here were about $2.5 k for a system with 1 litre pressure pots.
It’s not a full production system , but suits our needs well , considering we used to mix up in paper cups and dispense with sucker sticks:)
We can dome about 5 000 units of a bout 2 sq inches a day with a single machine and operator. We also use it for scripting , IE the nozzle is on a computerised xy table (an old 1m x 500mm cnc engraving machine bed) and it dispenses along computerised preset paths for doming complex shapes like vinyl cut letters etc.
The nice thing about the dopag system is that it can be expanded upon.
I dont see the small machine on their website , im not at work and have the specs there , will post it tommorow. -
Hi Rodney
Thanks for the reply. I have been reading a lot of your previous posts. Your knowledge of doming is very extensive and impressive. I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.
I will be thinking a little harder before I committ myself to this machine. -
Hi Rodney
I took a look at some of the dopag systems. Did you purchase your machine from Novamax, RPS or dopag direct. I’m not sure who to talk to
about the machines.
When you say 2.5k, is that $2,500 US?.
Can they supply a 10 shot manifold?.
There are no agents in Australia for econ doming machines. Well there is one company I contacted here in Aus and they start at $15,000au. I fell off my chair.
Was it the inconsistant delivery of the resin onto the label that caused the wasteage with the cammda machine and would you rule this option out totally?. -
Hiya
RPS supplys them. would be about GBP 2.5k , R26 000 with pressure pots
1$ us = R6.50 or so
The problem with the camm system is that the carts were never filled evenly and the carts come is a single unit that contains 2 barrels , The cammda unit has a single plunger which pushes down both plungers in the cart pack , so you generally have to run out a bit at the beginning to equalise the carts plungers. The plunger system couldnt use all the cart either , so out of a 400 ml cart , you got about 300 useable. The control unit gave us variable results. We had unexplained doming issue like the stuff not curing form stuff we did 1/2 way into a run. The carts were filled locally and we suspect that might have been the cause. We had no instructions whatsoever with the control system (the metering dispensing box). We also found 400ml a hassle in that you couldnt do a longer uninterupted run , 400 ml covers 300 sq inches or so , or 300 of those puter labels.
I wouldnt rule out the Cammda systems , but the cart system is not a good option.
What are you doming and what qty per day? -
Hi There
Thanks again for your reply.
The problem I have is that I have been waiting a while for a helpful contact from your side of the world SA to supply me with a machine to kick off my business. But due to the problems and delays you get when creating a new machine I will need to purchase something else now.
I have two customers on hold who get 10,000+ labels domed a week from
a competitor who won’t wait much longer.
The person from SA who has been helping me has suggested that he can order a cammda machine for me.
I am on a tight budget to start off with. Also as I am mainly doming labels I really would require something with a 10 shot manifold to speed things up a bit. I am a bit confused as to which direction to head as I don’t have a lot of time or a big purchasing wallet.OOps 12:30am. Must get some sleep as have to be up at 5:00am.
Look forward to your reply.
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there are only 2 ppl I know of in SA that it might be , one is RPS who would hardly sell cammda and the other is probably Telpro.
Rob Franco of GSW was touting some italian system.
Most want to sell the machine and carts .
for your quantity , neither would do , you need to spend the big money on a serious machine.
You aim to do 20 000 a week.
for that qty I would use a single part uv curable resin , the machinery you need is minimal , you dont have mix ratios , no problems with cold , pot lifes , moisture and the stuff is cured in seconds
The problem is its expensive , the resin itself and not so viscous so you cant build as high a dome.
But you would need a real simple dispensing system which would cost peanuts -
Sounds like I am in a situation. Now I am really confused as to which way to head.
How much more expensive is the uv curable resin as I have to keep my pricing sharp to keep in with the competitors. Plus does the UV curable resin yellow or crack when out doors for long periods of time because a lot of my customers will be boat and vehicle companies.What to do?. I may have to get the cammda untill I can afford to get something else.
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Your’e even in more of a predicament , the general run of the mill inexpensive resins , both epoxy and urethanes WILL yellow , you need very specific mercury free resins for vehicle and boat decals.
http://www.deco-coat.com/uv.html will give you more info.
Be VERY careful with yellowing etc.
Apart from which , you also have to be careful about the print method and inks used to do this stuff – some digital printing , even if domed , will not be uv stable either and often the print can bleed into the dome or if using vinyls , the plasiticisers in the vinyl do not allow a good bond to the dome itself and the dome can delam off the item.
Deco coat also supply equipmentfor doming , look a their website -
Hi Rodney
Thanks again for the advice. You have been very helpful.
I have been giving a lot of thought as to what direction I will head in and it looks like I will have to go for a cart machine just to get started.
With the interest and customers I have lined up I should be able to progress to a bulk feed system very quick (6MNTHS).
I have a local guy doing my prints for me on a SP300 using ecosol inks on a 5yr Avery vinyl. I have a supplier for the urethane who supplied me with some sample resin. The samples turned out brilliant. Tests have been done for the resin being outdoors but I am not sure if the vinyl and SP300 are right for boats and vehicles?. I presume it would be. What do you think?.
Its nice to talk to another domer. My friends and family just say “oh that sounds OK” and the reps will say anything to get you to buy something.Cheers
Paul -
hi Ive been folowing this post and this may help – i have been using this resin for around 5 years for alsorts of domed badges – using thermal and ecosol prints not had a durability problem yet – this company does muliti head machines as well
chris
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Thanks Chris
That is good to hear as there are many different opinions out there when it comes to thermal vs ecosol.
Cheers
Paul -
Rodney, can you tell me cheap supplyer for polyuretane resin? I am asking you about this because now we are buying 50ml carts from Atlass SK /Roland dealer in Greece/ and it seems to be very expencive for us. We need it for very short runs, 100-1000 pieces for month. But we have competitors here and we need to lower the price.
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Price should be about $15 -$20 per kg mixed , a kg should cover 1000 sq inches. Ciba Geigy make a water clear epoxy resin – most Ciba Geigy suppliers should have it. Urethanes we get locally , from national Urethane , but it might not be economical to ship and it has a shelf life. Try a local supplier of urethanes. It would normally be called a water clear flexible urethane.
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Hi Rodney
I am going to be supplied urethane to australia which comes from Telpro & National urethanes also. How do you find this urethane?. And how do you go when people ask for specs on the urethane (all the strength testing etc). Is this available?.
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National urethane have data sheets on the product , ask them to fax you. Telpro market the urethanes made by national urethanes in the cart system. They work very well. As I said , we didnt like the cart system , we buy in bulk. We actually also use a flexible epoxy based on a ciba geigy product but modified for us , yellowing is a problem but we dont use it for outdoor. We find it a bit better in terms of surface finish than the NU product – its less flexible and has a “drier” feel to it , the NU product has a more tacky feel but cures 10x quicker – you can ship doimed stuff in 2-3 hrs – shorter if you put it in a heated oven (ordinary oven low low temp)
We also do glass hard doming , for that we have found the epoxies the best – we dont use flexibles on badges etc. -
Hi Rodney
I have been given two prices from good urethane suppliers but one has given me a price for 600ml and the other for 1kg.
As most doming resins are around the same thickness and weight I thought you might know roughly what the comparison in mls is to kg?.I will probably have to email back the supplier working in kgs and ask how many mls.
Have a good easter
Paul. -
Roughly 1000 ml per kilo , quite near the density of water.
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Thanks Rodney
If I could shout a beer over the web I would. Thanks mate.
Paul
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