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LARGE Panatrim sign
hello All
I have a quote to do for a 32ft x 2.5ft (approx) facia . Existing frame
doesn’t look too bad..with perpsex coloured panel and graphics..
if I decide to replace the frame or at least price for it..are there any recommendations on joining such a sign together or more butting the panatrim ends together..or how would you go about taking it apart in the first instance as there ins’t much room either edge of the frame due to
both shops either side having projecting signs..any ideas are most welcome..Cheers
Jon 😉
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14 Replies
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You will need a couple of inches of clear space to get at least one end of the frame off. Similarly, the new frame will need to be a bit short of any obstructions in order to slide one end on. I did a frame in a recess last week and got the frame 2″ short of the recess size. I buy my frames ready made from Cherwells and where the lengths join (if over 20′) they fit a piece of ali in the frame that slots into the adjoining piece to keep them perfectly level.
I’d be interested to hear of any tips on how to fit a frame tight into a recess.
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dont know if this is the right way to do it but it has worked for me.
If there is no clearance to remove or put on the ends of the frame, leave one or both ends off, fit the fascia from the front, if you put the hanging strip in the right place, the fascia can be inserted at an angle. lifted up into the top rail and it should drop down into the bottom rail. Then cut the rear face from the one or both of the side pieces, attach a small piece of angle to join the corner and slide in. A couple off self tappers or self drill tappers finish the job off.
Sometimes you may come across a frame that has been boxed in after it was fitted, quickest way to remove the ends is to use a small angle grinder with a 1mm blade and cut through the corners.
Peter -
panatrim frame is designed to be front loaded…meaning you screw the frame in place and load the panel in from the front (has to be two panels or more) make sure you tell the people your buying the frame and panels from or they won’t fit.
Put panel one in frame as Peter has shown in another post, slide this panel to the far left hand side, then do the same for panel two, lift one panel and lock it onto the other panel and centre both in the frame..
Only about 15mm of panel will go into the frame each end…Simon
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I think you boys are being extremely brave fitting a 32′ perspex panel in panatrim with only 15mm overlap at 40 degrees C, which you have to allow for beause summer will come one day.
Anybody know the coefficient of expansion of perspex so that I can work out how big a gap that will leave at each end for the wind to get in when the temperature drops to zero degrees C sometime within the next few winters.
I hope that when the panel blows out in a winter storm you would all replace it for free rather than blame extreme weather and make the poor customer pay again like most of you were advocating for wind damage in the summer hurricanes because this wouldn’t be an Act of God, it would be the inevitable consequence of a lack of professionalism.
Worst of all is the potential danger. An eight by two and a half foot panel, with a bit of wind behind it, spinning down the High Street has the potential to cut some poor unsuspecting pedestrian in half.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I really don’t think it is safe, and I certainly wouldn’t do it. I would rather sleep at night rather than lie awake listening to the wind howling around the house wondering what mayhem is going on outside.
Have a nice day. 🙂
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John is right but if you use a bigger trim with a 2″ face and put flat plaes on front of trim either end when panels expand and contract you do not end up having gaps at the ends where wind can get in I have done this on a few occasions and havent had any problems
Dave -
The construction guide for making Eurotrim frames states that: –
“for signs with two or more panels with both ends of the frame fixed, cut 35mm of the overall height & 45mm of the overall length ( not forgetting the loss on the half lap joints)”
we however cut 30mm of the overall height & 40 mm of the overall length to make a safer sign – this still allows the panels to be put in place with both ends of the frame fixed.
It is extremely important though, when you are making front loading frames to remember to put the springs in the two end sections whist you are constructing the frame as they can’t be added once the frame is made up. These springs allow for the expansion in the hot weather, then push the panels back when they contract.
Another tip which has worked for us, is to cut two 5mm wide by 5mm thick pieces of acrylic to the height of the frame less the frames profile. So in this case the height of the facia is approx 700mm – if the profile of the frame is 30mm make your strips 60mm less than the overall height(hope that makes sense) the two strips of acrylic (the same colour as the facia panels) are then bonded to the inside edge of the frame (not the panels) These strips are fitted on site after the panels have been put in, effectivley giving you 10mm less of a gap for the panels to blow out. 😮
I know that sounds long winded but it is a really simple way of making it a safer sign. 🙂
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So what do you do then John??? you just don’t fit perspex panels into frames because they may blow out?….
In reality the panels are sucked out, which has more to do with the depth of panel, as we all know the panel only hangs on a 10-12mm hanging strip and about the same in the bottom of the frame, wind travelling along the face of the sign causes low pressure like an aroplane wing, which causes them to bow until they pop out.
Its all well and good saying lack of professionalism and stuff like that, maybe you should put in a suggestion then.
Firstly I was talking about front loading perspex panels into panatrim, that is when a frame or light box is fitted into a recess and the panels cannot be slid in, and the methods used.
Secondly the signs are made indoors, mild summer conditions so the panels are already set about half way in the expansion process, and yes really long signs can have expansion plates put in…Ie aluminum flat plate fixed at each ends of the frame or box, the perspex then slides back and forth behind this plate hiding the gap..
Expansion i would say around 3-4mm per metre on a warm dayI’ve been doing this job for 18 years and only seen a handful of signs blow out, and that was when i was working for the largest sign company in england doing there surveys and if there was that much of a problem with this happening we would all turn over to flex-face signs
Simon
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Oh dear. I’ve rattled your cage. Sorry Simon.
None of my comments were aimed at you personally but were intended to warn the original enquirer that he may be getting into deep trouble. He joined this board at the end of November and for all I know may have only been in the sign game for three months. I was trying to help him avoid repeating a big expensive mistake I nearly made myself with a forty by eight sign about twelve years ago.
I don’t know exactly the coefficient of expansion of acrylic but lets take the lower end of your range. 3mm per metre over the 7.9 metres of the sign he is looking at quoting for. That’s near enough 24mm out of a total of 30mm available leaving only 3mm at each end on a cold day. You consider that to be safe? The aluminium flat plate bit may work, I don’t know I’ve never tried it, but nobody was telling Solution Signs that before I put my twopennorth in. Whatever he decides at least he now knows that there might be a bit more to the job than he perhaps thought.
Making the signs inside in the warm makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. Whatever the starting point, there must be space for expansion and contraction over the full forty degree temperature range.
I stand by my lack of professionalism statement. If a panel blows out under predictable weather conditions then sorry, but in my opinion it is down to the sign maker or erector. They can, and probably will, blame each other, but it is down to one of them.
If anybody can make this system work then good luck to them, but they need to be made and erected properly and I doubt that every sign company in the country either has the expertise or pays the required attention to detail. Even a professional like yourself admits to roughly one failure every three years, and that is too many, both from a repair cost and a public safety aspect.
If you want a suggestion from me then I would say use a material that doesn’t expand, like dibond, I would also fix it direct to the building and put a fake frame around it made from aluminium angle. As an added bonus, with this method you can put more fixings in and not have all that weight hanging on just the top rail.
And the answer to your first question is that, no, I would not make this sign to the original specification. I would give the client my opinion and if he didn’t accept that then I would walk away.
I have only been doing this job for sixteen years. I’m still waiting for the first one to blow down.
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On any panatrim sign over 610mm you should use panatrim major rather than standard.
Problem is over the years the have made the extrusion thinner and lighter and Eurotrim although is easier to fit is not as strong.
There is no reason for any sign to blow out other than storm force winds and even that is no excuse as you can use flexiblefaced signs these days.
Thats not a big sign and so long as you use something rigid (not foamex)
and have big enough cover plates and the right hanging strip no probs.
Panatrim and eurotrim is ideally designed to be front loaded except when in only one or two panels where you have to take an end off. In say a three panel sign you put the two ends in first and then the middle making sure that you fitted the rebates or cover plates in the right order to allow this.
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Not the case John… I just wouldn’t give advice on something i don’t know about, what if the sign was to be illuminated what would you do then?
As for the 3mm each end, that’s lost me (not hard to do 😕 ) but you have about 58mm o/a to play with and of course it make a difference where the sign is made, you have to cut the panels to size, so if you cut them in a freezing cold work shop, the panels will be contracted and they will expand more than you want them too, also if you cut them in a really hot factory, when they contract in the cold and be too small.
As signwriter has said it not that big a sign, that is why i didn’t mention the end expansion plates etc and i wouldn’t be worried about blow out at that size.
The other way to stop blow out is run clear PX strips down the back say 10-12mm x 5mm on edge to act as strengthener’s to stop the panel flexing that is how blow outs happen, by the panel flexing over the height.Simon
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You used to be able to get panacase internally illuminated boxes too.
Very good they were if you had to fit in a recess.
Incidentally thats what panatrim and eurotrim are best at – signage in a recess enabling you to fit virtually edge to edge.
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Universal have them..
Simon
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Simon,
Sorry mate, it does make a difference where you make the sign.
In a twenty degree workshop you can cut the panels to the nominal size knowing that expansion and contraction amounts at the temperature extremes of zero and forty will be roughly the same. That’s ideal.
If you make it outside in zero degrees, when it heats up to forty on a nice bright sunlit day the panels are going to expand until they meet the frame and then, as they expand further, they will either buckle, or force the end of the frame off. You need to cut the panels shorter than nominal to allow for this.
Likewise, if you make the sign in forty degree heat they will need to be cut longer than nominal as they will shrink to the correct size as the temperature drops to twenty. The problem is that you need to be sure that they don’t shrink so far as to leave a gap when the temperature reaches zero.
Of course, we don’t usually have to worry about this sort of thing but as sign size reaches the limits of performance of the components we use which, in my opinion, a 38 foot panatrim sign is doing, then it does need considering.
I hope I have explained it properly, but if not let me know and I will try to draw a diagram to explain my thinking more clearly.
If the sign was to be illuminated I wouldn’t use Panatrim, or any of its clones. I would buy a proper sign box from Kestrel Signs.
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John
I understand exactly what you are saying and you are right but…The same tolerances apply for non illuminated and illuminated (save for a bit extra heat from the tubes)
and the way round it for both is to have allow for it at the ends and make cover plates accordingly at each end.
Nothing much wrong kestral boxes but its they that are clones of their original “Dualcase boxes”.
But you are right its almost certain that on large signs you should use a flexible face and save all the hassle of joints & blowouts. Mind you they are bloody heavy!! lol
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