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North/South Divide
I went to Nottingham today to deliver a machine and got talking to my customer (sign company) about what to charge customers! Since we are still producing signs too I was able to give a valid insight to what we charge in the south!
He said that he avoids vehicle graphics like the plague as there is “no money in it” the average transit builders van graphics selling for £120.00!
I was taken aback a little as we aim more at vehicles as there is money to be made out of them for us. cut and fit is our profit philosophy on vehicles with possbly design at times but nothing ott, and quite often reproduction.
I know this has been raised before but his prices seemed very cheap ( he has also been in the game for alot of years ), even a 20ft x 3ft banner at £125.00 😕 I could not get remotley near that price!
What are your thoughts?
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30 Replies
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I don’t know if it is just a geographical issue, but must also depend on the competition in the area. I was talking with the only other sign co. in my town yesterday on this very subject. It is fortunate for me that in a medium sized town there are hardly any signmakers, but my point to him was that just because I have no major overheads I refuse to work for knock down prices. I expect to be paid the going rate for work. However, I hear from people in other parts of the county who report exactly what you describe, brought about by muppets like me (that is, self employed, working from shed) doing vans for pocket money. Doesn’t do anyone any favours, just devalues the work.
I’d be interested to hear if everyone ‘upnorth’ has the problem you describe.
I, of course, charge a fortune.
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I agree with the devaluing issue! Just look at Yell charge for an ad, and its only for a year. I know prices vay on areas with them but still expensive On a van its years of exposure 24/7.
I did say that he should put his prics up but as you said Big G its area saturation I think, but you have to ask ho long “cheap graphics” will last.
At the end of the day anyone with a plotter and a comp can put words on a van, sign etc but can it be done professionally? Judging by constant observation of signs and vans the answer is quite often no!
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I dont know what the going rate is, I’ve never worked on that, The rate you can charge is directly related to overheads, therefore a man in a shed can charge less than the man in an industrial unit. The man in the shed can thetefore compete with larger firms and this applies all the way up the scale. If you look at a going rate it may not pay your overheads, always charge your own going rate. I have no objection to competition it keeps people on their tootsies.
Peter -
That’s too cheap. Yes there are those doing vans for that price but they won’t grow their business if they contiunue to give stuff away like that.
I’m quite happy to stick with higher prices – there’s plenty of work going around so no need to offer prices that are too low.
My philosophy is if someone else wants to do it for less they are welcome to do so. This keeps them busy working for peanuts while I can concentrate on more worthwhile projects that they are too busy to do. :lol1:
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I can do a bog standard tranny start to finish in about 90 minutes, material say 5m 5-7 yr vinyl £15 inc app tape charge £120-150 is that to cheap then?
Peter -
I know what a job should be worth to a bigger outfit than myself as I’ve worked for a few. It’s all a bit swings and roundabouts really: I have lower overheads, but a bigger company will usually get better prices from suppliers for bulk buying. However, I don’t think I should charge less just because I don’t have to pay big bills. Also, as my throughput is lower than ‘BigSignCo’ I need to survive the leaner times. I could charge less, but won’t. My work’s as good as ‘theirs’ so I rate its value as high.
A 90 minute job for £120 – £130 sounds OK. I’ve heard of local companies asking that for 5metres of digital print on a van. How are they making a living?
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Peter..If your design is half decent – that’s far too cheap!!
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I can also spend a lot Of time on worth while projects only to get pipped at the post because some one done it cheaper. lots of thing have to be taken into acoount in customer relations and cost is only one of them
charge what you need to charge but always do the best you can do for that charge
Peter -
I work as a team with my wife we make a good living, our over heads are low (work from home) Thats how I get the work that you charge more for.
I dont charge the same as bigger firms because i dont have the staff etc. suits me. What I call bog standard isnt a design its just cut words and its what the customer wants. Not all customers have the money or imagination to go brash or different.
Peter -
It’s funny how attitudes vary. We’re not that far from Nottingham and we don’t like doing signs because there’s no money in them. 😀
I suppose we are lucky in that, by going for larger fleets, the person operating from a garden shed can’t compete with us. Sure they can hit us pricewise but they don’t have the capacity or the back-up to cope with the volume.
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Same up here in yorkshire, for a standard sized tranny top wack would be £175 for text and an uncomplecated logo. There are some companies within 5 miles of me that would do the same van for £80/£90. Within a 20 mile radius there are nearly 60 sign companies listed in yellow pages and thats by no means all of them Im sure. 🙁
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Peter, I too work with my wife. A husband and wife team are a fantastic basis for a sound business. You can rely on each other entirely, and know that you are both doing your best for what is your co-owned business.
The problem with offering low prices is that you get a reputation for being cheap and become indundated with enquiries to do work that takes up all of your time. You find yourself working long hours for little reward. Beleive me .. I know.. I’ve been there..and it’s a painful (and worrying)process to shed the customers that you no longer wish to deal with in a few years time.
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Phill,
your right about h&w teams, done it for years, and not only in signs.
We are in the position that we can pick our customers, we dont work long hours, we have no desire to expand, Been there done that and literally made the t shirts! We dont have any headaches or finacial problems.
So my prices are what I consider reasonable its horses for courses, and like I said earlier Charge what you have to, to make a reasonable living. And in my experience from other business, Never underestimate the firms that are charging less than you, one day they will take your work.
Peter -
I could so easily sit on the fence here, but you wouldn’t expect that would you :lol1:
I am on some jobs embarassingly expensive and on others unashamedly cheap. However……………
quote :You find yourself working long hours for little reward.If Peter can do a Transit in 90 minutes for £150 that doesn’t neccessarily mean he’ll be working long hours for little reward does it? If he gains a reputation for being cheap and that brings him 2 or 3 jobs a day like this then he’s doing 4 and a half hours a day for over a grand a week!
Of course if he’s doing one a day he has far too much spare time on his hands!
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As far as husband & wife teams are concerned…I wish. My girlyfriend picked a few middles out of some lettering once and wanted a dishwasher in return!
Martin, you should hear what they’re saying about you on the minimum wage thread….don’t tell ’em I told you. 😀 😀 😉
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quote big G:Martin, you should hear what they’re saying about you on the minimum wage thread….don’t tell ’em I told you. 😀 😀 😉:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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quote big G:As far as husband & wife teams are concerned…I wish. My girlyfriend picked a few middles out of some lettering once and wanted a dishwasher in return!
You eventually found her then? 😉
quote Big G – Wuss International:Martin, you should hear what they’re saying about you on the minimum wage thread….don’t tell ’em I told you. 😀 😀 😉:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
Cheers, Dewi
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I think I’d like to nominate myself for ‘Post of the Month’ for that one.
Do I get a prize?
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quote big G – In Imminent Danger:I think I’d like to nominate myself for ‘Post of the Month’ for that one.
Do I get a prize?
Yep, the boys are on their way round to give you a prize, and its not a new dishwasher :lol1:
Actually thats not a half bad idea! Post of the Month! With a Bacardi Breezer as a prize, now thats worth posting for!! 😀
Cheers, Dewi
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you couldnt handle a breezer mate. youde be flat on your back after a sip. 😎
ill have to delete these posts a little later guys sorry, we are killing a good thread :lol1: 😉
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quote Peter Normington:Never underestimate the firms that are charging less than you, one day they will take your work.
PeterI agree Peter – never take your eye off the ball and never take your customers for granted 😀
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What I can’t understand is that a decent, reputable company in the next town to me are doing good work and charging the sort of prices a bloke working from his spare bedroom would charge. Is this the way things are going? Is signwork getting cheaper? In other peoples’ experience, is this common? I’m talking about a business with maybe 10 employees, industrial estate premises, large format printing doing, for example, 5 metres square of printing and say, 5 metres of cut vinyl on a van for 125 squids! Do me a lemon!
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Must mention Henry Ford here, the more you do the cheaper it gets, but earns more profit for the man at the top. stay small you will make a good living, to make a fortune you have to go very large. Eddie Stobbart made fortunes doing transport cheaper than anyone else, But he also did it better.
Peter -
quote Peter Normington:Never underestimate the firms that are charging less than you, one day they will take your work.
Sorry about this, but I disagree. Just because someone is charging less doesn’t mean they’ll get the job and you won’t. Okay, so Bob the Builder may go to the cheapest, but there are more and more firms who believe that they need to project a good company image and therefore expect to pay a reasonable amount to achieve this.
If you design a logo, a shop sign, an A board, a vehicle and more for a customer, you’ve just created thier image to the world, and no offense meant to anyone, but if you don’t know your posterior from your collar bone, thier image will be about as effective as a snow plough in Africa! 😕
As discussed in other threads, there are plenty of cowboys who will gladly type a line of text, cut it out and stick it to a van for £80 and they will get work every day of the week at that price. Generally speaking though, I doubt they get a huge amount of repeat trade and a wink ‘n’ a smile can hardly be classed as customer relations 🙄
Personally I think £150 for basic lettering on a vehicle is pretty good money, its just the idea that if someone offers it cheaper they’ll take your customers from you. There is a sign firm near to me that offers to slash my quotes in half, but so far that particular sign firm has managed to take one customer. Slashing a £50 quote in half just to get some work in isn’t exactly an impressive marketing technique! 😕
Cheers, Dewi
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Dewi
just because someone does it cheaper dosnt automatically mean they are a cowboy. For example digital print has gone very cheap over the last few years, The people that win out are the ones who offer the best quality at the cheapest price, and still make profit, goes for any business not just signs.
Peter -
I was quoting a very specific scenario, in the respect of a transit van for £80, I wasn’t saying because someone offered a cheap price they were a cowboy. The cowboy element was actually more targeted at thier design skills rather than thier pricing, even if they charged £200 a van, they’d still be cowboys. If someone can not design, can not apply very well and get thier business by underpricing alone, what would you call them? (please please don’t say Indians :lol1: )
I’m not being funny here Peter, its just my opinion that price isn’t always foremost in every customers mind. Design, timescale and the personality of the signmaker play a big part amongst other things in making a customers mind up.
Cheers, Dewi
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quote :effective as a snow plough in Africa
They have snow on the top of Kiliminjaro! 😉
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Dewi,
I agree with what you say no probs, In fact here in Luton (as you know we has a large asian community) there is a certain firm that advertise on their van “You’ve tried the Cowbows, now try the Indians”
All I am saying is that price does matter, Its cutting your cloth to match the suit. If you wanted a new Porsche and you could get it for 5K cheaper down the road, where would you buy it?
Peter -
But signmakers do not offer like for like? 😕 To liken the analogy, would I like the new porsche with the full leather interior and the turbo or would I like the new porsche without the full leather interior and the turbo for £5k less. Depends how much I want the leather interior and the turbo.
On some products, one signmaker will offer a like for like, safety signs are pretty much the same, just made on different substrates etc. but when it comes to designing a van its entirely different. I’ve seen designs on uksb that I would gladly pay £400 for if it were for my business, but I’ve equally seen vans on the motorway I wouldn’t pay £40 for, even if they included the vehicle!
I agree on the fact that every signmaker chooses their overheads, we all have a choice to work from home, a shop or a unit, but I disagree that price is the overriding decider from the customers point of view. As I said before, there is a sign firm in my town offering to undercut me by 50%, yet the very same customers still come to me. Why? Its certainly not for my looks 😉
Cheers, Dewi
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I don’t think its a noth/south/east/west or any geographic divide, I never compete on price for vehicles, people bring me designs from others and say “how much for this”
“how much you been quoted?”
“£120”
“Seems like a fair price for a $hit design, I’ll charge you more than twice that for something that will do what you need it to do, demonstrate to your customers that you are a quality business not some pikey after a quick buck!”
or the even better “How cheap can you sign my van?”
“£20 for a tin of paint and a paint brush! now feck off and stop wasting my time!!”Ooooh where’s Mike Brown when we need him, works out of a shed, charges bloody good money and is one of the best damn designers in the country.
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