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Edge Vs Arizona… NOT the Arizona!!!!!
I am Not a happy Bunny my signboard buddies…. 😡
I have just done a van using the sevices of a supplier of Arizona prints, I won’t go on about the ins & outs of the last couple of days problems, maybe this is a lesson that other sign makers can learn from, just to say I thought the Arizona printer was the ‘Bees Knees’ in the league of solvent ink onto vinyl, not anymore.
I was asked to quote for signage on a new van, it had to match in with the other 6 vans in the fleet, the sign firm who signed up the old vans were using a Gerber Edge.
I will show you the photos of the old & new logos, I know there is an issue with supplied artwork and what the other sign firm have done with the artwork to make it work on an edge but the artwork supplied was CMYK format & the red part of the artwork was 100% magenta 100% yellow, which should be the brightest red going!!!!
Please feel free to tell me where I’m going wrong, I will leave you with the quote from my disgruntled customer…. “It looks a bit pink mate!!”
DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😥
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8 Replies
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The thing is that digital printers use inks and every inkset and every printer and every rip resolution setting and every media will print differently.
If you want stuff exactly colour matched , its really no good to merely give cmyk values , you actually need to specify pantone colours or give a colour swatch.
This is not a problem with the printer , it’s a problem with the operator and perhaps the rip.
There is a colour workflow that good digital print shops follow , its expensive to implemennt and takes some time and effort to master. Suffice it to say , there should be colour calibration from monitor to printer.
A lot of digital print shops just press and print , the problem is that it is a cuthroat field in respect of pricing so to enable the cheap X per sq ft formula to work , there can be no fiddling or testing.
Often generic or cheaper inksets are used with unpredictable results .
Exceptional results are available with digital printing if the printshp takes care – you were more he victim of poor production than the victim of digital prints. -
I agree with Rodney, not knowing much about digital printing i can’t really comment on the process, but i do think it’s alot to do with who ever is operating the machine.
I don’t do much digital stuff but that which i have done has all been produced by seperate companies and not one digital print job i’ve seen has been to my satisfaction, esoecially the inkjet prints.
Maybe some one can also explain to me why when you provide vector artwork with pantone colours, the person doing the printing always changes it to a tiff file, giving stray pixels all over the place blotchy colours and a brown washed out black??
May be I expect too much??
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There has been loads of problems out there about the difference between RGB and CMYK, in my experiences the edge and Maxx give far better colour if RGB is used, if my client gives me an image I will first take it to photoshop and convert. I have never been a fan of inkjet prints, which is why I purchased the Edge2 and Maxx2, and have never looked back. YET
If you want any quotes for prints, feel free to give me a shout, 2 day delivery to the mainland. -
Thanks all for your comments, I did give a Pantone reference (032) for the red but it still came pink, or more like Pantone 184.
The reason I didn’t use Edge printed graphics was because my customer had a couple of problems with the original prints.
(1) joins through the middle of the logos, some of which were shrinking away leaving a dirty adhesive mark.
(2) fading problems (see photo) this was only on 2 logos out of 6 vans, but still a worry.Andrew, quite interested in your Maxx2, am I right in thinking this machine is a wide format ‘Edge’ printer, with ink on accetate? If so that would get round the join problem, the biggest logos are 2025 mm x 400 mm, any thoughts on the fade problem? If I need to replace the Arizona prints I will contact you for a quote, thanks mate.
Steve
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Steve
The Maxx prints 860mm high and 50m long in one piece, the only problem i would have is I dont have a plotter to cut the shapes out.
On the fade front, you should try Frog Juice, if you get an edge, maxx or ink print you just spray this over the surface, before application
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Re ARIZONA prints…As he so often does, Rodney hit the nail on the head.
Re EDGE prints…there are PLENTY of happy end-users out there with panelled graphics that don’t fail as you’ve described and graphics that don’t fade.
In both cases above (whenever you are outsourcing, really), I would recommend becoming somewhat familiar with the technology and specifying the use of certain materials.
In the case of ARIZONA printing, had your supplier chosen to work with ImagePerfect brand media (only example I am familiar with), they (and you, and your client) would have benefitted from the great lengths and expense that the supplier (Spandex, in this case) has gone to in creating media profiles that ensure optimal colour reproduction.
In the case of EDGE prints for vehicle graphics, I would strongly recommend specifying Gerber/3M 220 series vinyl, printed using GerberColor cartridges and Gerber Abrasion Guard.
Yes, I am totally bias — but not soley on the basis of who owns ND GRAPHICS or whose products we carry. The materials outlined above have a lengthy, PROVEN track record…as do the majority of firms who use them.
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It depends on the RIP as to what format is required , however EPS format is the graphics industry standard and is probably a LOT better than a tiff , especially if using vector graphics
TIFF is by definiton a RASTER format and there is a conversion going on proir to the RIP
My RIP uses EPS and then rasterizes it using ICC profiles which were developed for the media and inkset. It would STILL rasterise if I used a TIFF (which I can) , but there is no point in a double rasterization proccess which can be problematic
NEVER send a JPEG when sending a raster only file , its a lossy format – send a tiff.As to blacks etc , that is a printer problem , You can do black with K or C+Y+M – the cym black will always not be great , in fact K black is not that great either sometimes , there is a formula for “black” which is actually not 100% black only which gives a perception of a richer black, but I’m not going to get into that.
Pixelization in a graphic is due to the fact that the graphic was not sent in a “resolution” suitable for the printer , IE if the printer can print 150 LPI (line per inch) , it doesnt matter WHAT you set the resolution of the print to – it HAS to have at least 150 pixels per inch of print (The DPI resolution applies to an output device and DPI is not the right term to use when sending stuff for digital printing)
In essence for ANY digital print , send the file with at least 120+ pixels per inch of print if a raster file, IE a 8 x 10 print should be sent as a file that is 960 pixels x 1200 pixels , and if sent in RGB then the file size is 960x1200x3 = 3.5 megapixel file.Blotchy colours should never happen , especially if you have a good printer – however often the operator will try to get away with “low dpi” printing for various reasons , one being ink coverage savings and the other being (most likely) speed , If I print at 450×360 dpi , I can churn out 28 sqm per hour , at 1440×1440 , the speed reduces to about 2 m2 per hr.
Pixelaisation should never happen in a vector based file unless it was converted into a raster file at the wrong size (not resolution)We give our clients highly detialed artwork requirements as well as asking them to sign off colour matched proofs (small sections – not a full print)
As to RGB vs CMYK , The way RGB is translated has a ton to do with the RIP , I would rather the RIP handle that translation than a program – the RIP should have various ways of handling input profiles and the output will depend on how well it does so.
You can never emulate a monitors output (which is RGB)as a print and thus the colour workflow thing I mentioned , you calibrate your monitor to emulate the output of your CMYK printer and thus you get WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) We print colour charts for every inkset and media and resolution and thus know exactly what output will be like.
There are other problems in that certian colours CANNOT be produced due to the limitations of the inkset etc – this applies to any printer.In respect to the argument of what printer is best:
I have thermal printers , the (Rolands – tho I would rather have had an edge) Whether it be edge or PC or nautilus or whatever , the output of a decent inkjet digital printer can approach Dye sub quality especially with the variable droplet machines. My Roland Soljet Pro II prints and die cuts better than any thermal machine I have seen – if it had not , I would have continued with thermal. With new inksets and IR curing , It can print onto just about ANY substrate I wish – about 20x faster then My thermal’s , and at about 1/10th of the cost. (I can’t print White or spot Metallics) Our thermal printers STILL work plenty but really only doing small highly detailed stuff , which they are emminently suited to.
In reality , thermal printers are EXACTLY like inkjets , its just a different formulation of “ink” and the way it’s layed down, both are still digital.
There is no reason to eschew inkjet or wide format digital printing , it has its place especially if doing bigger stuff like banners , short duration graphics , roll up POS dispays etc which cannot really be paneled and are price oriented.
Whichever printer you use , the final output is dependant on the operator and the care taken – like anything else.Fading on vehicles is generally NOT due to UV – especially with thermal printers whose output is pretty durable – its generally due to micro abraision , either environmental or most likely , washing with stuff like handy andy. That is why ANY durable graphics destined for a vehicle should be overlaminated – frog juice and wet lamination is also not ideal as they also suffer abraision – a cold pressure lamination should be used(Or something like GMPS’ chemical resistant micronex )
We laminate anything that is going to be handled or touched or is subject to wear. Yes , it’s a schlep and adds to the cost , but we never have a comeback unless it’s for more work. -
Thanks Jon for all the info on Thermal printing, in an ideal world when there’s not a silly deadline and a competitive price needed yes I would use all the top quality materials, in hindsight I now realise I should have ordered sample prints from various machines & discussed the different quality issues with the client, but alas, on this job, time & price were not on my side 🙁 and I picked the wrong type of printer for the job.
And Rodney!! wow what an info packed posting 😀 …..thanks mate!
It all made sense, I did spend some time 6 years ago running a Novajet printer for an exhibition firm & it does ring true about the lower resolution graphic ‘ripping’ quicker and the forcing of the printer to print faster at the expense of quality. The times I would go home with yellow & red hands cos the bloody cartridge heads would clog & need flushing out….. the horror 👿I have learnt a valuble (and possibly expensive) lesson here, thanks again to all who have passed on their expertise 🙂
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