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  • Solvent Print out-gassing Roland TR2 Inks, views and opinions please?

     David Hammond updated 2 weeks ago 7 Members · 39 Posts
  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 14, 2021 at 1:07 pm

    I’ve been having issues when cutting MD5A, with their gloss Laminate using our VF2, running TR2 inks.

    When cutting, the pressure seems uneven – I can rule out the cutter as it performs perfectly cutting CAD vinyl, and the issue occurs on both our Graphtec & Roland Cutters.

    Doing a test cut, it cuts fine on the unprinted area, but when cutting where inks are laid down, the pressure appears to increase. Either cutting through the vinyl fully or snagging it on smaller details.

    Roland claim 6hr outgassing, these were printed yesterday AM, left overnight, laminated this morning then cut. Not quite 24hrs, more 22.

    I’m inclined to think I need to allow longer to outgas, although never had a problem with our OKI, or the VersaArt, both solvent printers.

     

    Just uploaded a video of me weeding a logo.

    Green weeds a treat, the grey is a bit of a bugger, and the unprinted area doesn’t weed great. More pressure it cuts through the printed area, too little and the unprinted/grey area doesn’t weed. – https://youtu.be/R0_CZoODvss

    • This discussion was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  David Hammond.
    • This discussion was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Robert Lambie.
    • This discussion was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Robert Lambie.

  • Graham Scanlan

    Member
    December 14, 2021 at 8:11 pm

    Hi David,

    What gassing off method do you use?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      December 14, 2021 at 8:19 pm

      Left it on the roll from the take up unit ๐Ÿ˜‚

      I know it’s better to stand it up on end, wound loosely, even better still to have a fan drawing air & solvent down and away.

      I’ve spoken with Metamark, and they agree it’s probably outgassing. Might try and whack the heaters up to the max and do some experimenting

  • David Stevenson

    Member
    December 14, 2021 at 11:09 pm

    Hi David, we too have been having huge problems with TR2 inks. I believe we run the same printer (VF2-640). We’ve spoken with our rep and whilst Roland state you can laminate after 6 hours we’ve found for wraps ourselves and others are needing at least 5 days unrolled on a dryer rack!!! Weeding is the exact same as you’re experiencing although I’ve always found printed material horrible to weed at the best of times. We intend now to convert an old steel cabinet into a hardcore drying unit to dump all our materials into. I’ve attached a link I posted explaining the difficulties we’ve been experiencing. I get the feeling TR3 inks will be here sooner rather than later as this is just unacceptable ๐Ÿ™

    https://uksignboards.com/forums/discussion/problems-with-rolands-truevis-tr2-inks/

    Problems with Rolands TrueVIS TR2 Inks

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 6:33 am

    I’m glad it isn’t just me!

    It appears to affect the green/orange inks more. Perhaps its the cooler weather making it more noticeable?

    Never needed a drying cabinet, or to faff around with the EcoSol inks.

    What temperatures are you using on the machine?

    • David Stevenson

      Member
      December 17, 2021 at 10:19 am

      We’ve it set to 45c for the Print Heater, and Maxed out the Dryer at 50c. Still doesn’t make any difference. The more saturated the longer to dry and the tackier the glue ๐Ÿ™ Apparently Oracal are working on a new profile which will hopefully help. You could try metamarks profile for MPI1105 which is their wrapping vinyl. I have it here if you want it emailed through

  • David Wilde

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 2:53 pm

    When we bought our Roland, the engineer raised his eyebrows considerably when I mentioned the 6 hour gassing off period. We have found 24-48 hours is usually needed and that’s for flat sign panels.

    The issue with the cutting does seem to be a gassing off issue from how you describe it though.

    If it helps we have some old milk crates in the corner of the vinyl room which we loosely stand the rolls on to gas off. Definitely improved the times compared to just standing the rolls on their side.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 4:56 pm

    I spoke to Roland today, they agree it sounds like outgassing issue, but they were surprised as it was 22 hours. That said it’s not something they’ve come across with the cutting and it only affecting certain printed colours more than others.

    That said, they did suggest standing the roll on end, loosely wound, should help the solvent fall away. We’ve some birch ply over from a job so have ordered two fans and will knock up a box to draw the air down over the rolls.

    Their other suggestion was it may be the hot laminator causing and issue and to try cold laminating?

    I’m confident it’s an outgassing issue, but the 6hr claim must only apply if you’ve printed pantone 7603, on a Monday, following a full moon, with an easterly wind not exceeding 4mph, for a client called Brian. ๐Ÿคจ

    No manufacturer of material, inks, machinery, seems to give any indication on how best to outgas prints.

  • David Wilde

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 5:48 pm

    To be honest, I doubt that’s the case mate.

    Pantone 7603 is a medium/dark brown and heavy in ink saturation….

    • David Hammond

      Member
      December 17, 2021 at 2:58 pm

      My attempt at humour ๐Ÿคฃ

      Reprinted, left on end overnight, same issue on one logo. Roland have the print file for them to test and see if they can replicate it.

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    December 17, 2021 at 9:13 pm

    The best way to work out if it is the vinyl or the inks is to properly test them “as best you can”.

    1, Laminate a foot or two of MD5. (no print)
    2, Laminate a foot or two of another brand digital and laminate. (no print)
    3, Laminate a foot or two of solid panels of Printed CMYK in both brands of digital.
    (Allow 24hrs to outgas.)
    4, Set the blade pressure and note it down.
    4, Now cut the alphabet in lowercase and capitals in the following sizes.
    18mm – 30mm – 50mm
    5, Now try and weed them all, and note problematic letters and sizes as you do.

    Doing this will let you see if the vinyl is the issue with or without ink/print.
    It will let you see if the ink has the same effect on both media at the same time, settings and all else.
    It could be that the solvent has an adverse effect on the print medias adhesive. because contrary to what many think, it is not just the vinyl that is affected by the solvent, but the adhesive is too. the solvent may have 90% gone from the vinyl, but could be 70% still in the adhesive.

    All that aside, it could be that the manufacturer is having issues with their adhesive coating.
    Over the past ten years, this has happened twice “that I have heard of” with Oracal 651. Which is NOT a digital vinyl. Many sign makers had a spell where it was weeding very poorly. basically, the vinyl was cut perfectly fine. but those that left the vinyl sitting unweeded, found it a nightmare to weed! Apparently, the adhesive was gel’ing back together after it had been cut. if you just cut and weeded right away it was pretty much spot on. but leave it 30 minutes or so and it was a different situation.

    I know you have tried various vinyl etc. and did not have a problem. but i would suggest trying a brand new blade and getting the pressure to cut light, but not making a mark/score in the carrying liner. see how that goes?
    Also, looking at the freeze frame of your video, I can see that the pressure is too high on the blade or the blade is on its road out. this creates the appearance of more of a
    chamfered cut, which catches the light much more, making it very visible like in the attached photo.

    either way, it would be great to hear how you get on with this David. makes great reading and help for others with the same problem, mate. ๐Ÿ‘

    David Stevenson, sorry mate, I missed that reply in that other post you made mate. definitely, a better solution for out-gassing than just sitting. ๐Ÿ‘

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 19, 2021 at 4:31 pm

    You’re right Rob, the pressure is too high on the green, but then too low on the grey, despite it being fine on the test cut on the unprinted area before cutting.

    I’ve ruled out the blade using a new blade.

    The cutting strip is OK, and if it was the strip would affect all areas that are cut in the same spot. I’m reluctant to change it just to damage it whilst we have the issue.

    I need to do some testing that sounds like a job for Tuesday.

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    December 19, 2021 at 4:45 pm

    Having watched the video again mate, I think I have sussed why things are difficult to weed.
    It’s that bloody background music, please ask Paul to turn that off during all future tests and trials. ๐Ÿคจ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • David Hammond

      Member
      December 20, 2021 at 8:24 am

      My choice of music, I find it keeps me calm when silly things like this happen… listening to death metal results in the offending item being launched around the workshop ๐Ÿ˜‚

      • Robert Lambie

        Administrator
        December 20, 2021 at 1:26 pm

        I always had the radio playing loud in the workshop or while driving. but the past 10 years, it just irritates me and i turn it off. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with some good background music but Christmas songs etc ๐Ÿ˜ณ๐Ÿ˜ฉ

        ๐Ÿคฃ

        • David Hammond

          Member
          December 20, 2021 at 1:57 pm

          Classic FM, we’re very cultured, and the music tends to be longer, with less talking

          ๐Ÿ˜‚

          Back to the problem in hand, we’ve to two large extractor fans, and will be modifying a cupboard into an drying unit, with heater element at the top, and fans to draw the air down through the bottom.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 20, 2021 at 4:51 pm

    2x 10inch, 240v fans have arrived to aid the outgassing process…

    They certainly shift some air – https://youtu.be/I8mAr0M3wP8

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 21, 2021 at 10:29 am

    Did someone say air flow aids outgassing ๐Ÿ˜‚
    Fans are fitted, in the new year we’ll make to ‘chimneys’ to fit around them, to house the graphics, and install a double switch so they can be turned on & off separately.

    • David Stevenson

      Member
      December 28, 2021 at 10:12 pm

      Tidy bit of work there David. I built something very similar a few years back to aid drying although we still struggle with the prints from the VF2-640. Your fans though are huge compared to what we’re using, time for an upgrade for us I think. Where did you buy the fans if you don’t mind me asking? Something you might want to bear in mind if you intend on sitting the rolls directly on top of those fan guards is they’ll bend pretty quick with the weight of the rolls. Might do no harm to make a “X” shape out of some 25mm H x 15mm W laths to take the weight.

  • Chris Wilson

    Member
    December 28, 2021 at 1:09 pm

    Hey David,

    Hope all is well.

    Are you enjoying the machine overall? I’ve got a VG2 lined up with the orange ink. Worth it? Or do you find yourself swearing at it more than you thought?

    • David Stevenson

      Member
      December 28, 2021 at 2:52 pm

      Here’s a comparison of the orange from our CMYK LC LM LK XR640 vs the VF2-640 with orange ink! Results speak for themselves .

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 28, 2021 at 1:18 pm

    No issues with the machine, had to have an engineer out early on as it wouldn’t print in the centre of the media, a small batch left the factory with something incorrectly set.

    The green/orange work well for us as we do mainly vehicle graphics so the extra vibrancy comes in handy.

    This outgassing issue is a first for us after many years using solvent machines, but we’ll suss it out, I have the customer bringing two Van’s in the new year so we’ll see if the new fans help.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 5, 2022 at 11:23 am

    Here it is in all its glory, the MK1 drying unit.

    Got the same customer booked in on Monday, and the artwork still on the rip, so intend to print the same file, and drop it in here to help outgas, and see if the results are the same.

    I’ve another smaller job at the moment, so have one in the dryer and one hung over the laminator and will see if there’s a noticeable difference.

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 5, 2022 at 3:44 pm

    I love the fact you have spent time and money to try and eliminate this problem for your business, David. So many complain about this long term issue, yet none try to properly solve it!
    I do not just mean sign and print companies, but more so, the solvent printer manufacturers. As it would be in the very best interest to help reduce the wait time or better the result after the wait time.
    I have spoken about this for 15+ years on UKSB and it was included in part of my UKSG wrap training course, and I am no expert in it all. yet the basic principles of reducing the drying time and residual solvent in the prints, seem to be ignored by our industry!

    Anyway, it’s great to see what you are doing and it’s very interesting to see how you get on with it.

    Do your fans have a forward and reverse option?
    Do they have speed settings?

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 6, 2022 at 10:08 am

    We’re trying and we have a bit of a conclusion.

    The fans don’t have a speed controller (yet) and are set to suck only. They were sucking so hard it caused the media to draw together when loosely rolled, so some masking tape to reduce airflow resolved that.

    We left the prints in about 20hrs, and laminated this morning.

    1 set we’re putting through our Roland GR cutter, it behaved mostly, with the exception of some smaller text which for some reason it decided would go through the backing! Tried a new blade, and a new red tipped blade which is a smaller diameter point, and the same occurred. Cutting strip is (was) new too. It’s snagging, and dragging the text, lifting if off the backing.

    The second set are going to be cut on out trusty Graphtec FC8600, and I don’t anticipate their being a problem..

    So yes the unit does appear to have aided the outgassing – However, we’re still not entirely satisfied with the Roland Cutter.

    I’ll update how things progress!

  • Gary Forbes

    Member
    January 7, 2022 at 11:05 am

    I have completely missed this topic. great idea David, how much did the fans cost? they look powerful!

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 7, 2022 at 11:14 am

    They are powerful, if anything to powerful and overkill, they pull the media in on itself restricting the airflow over some parts.

    It has resolved the issue to some extent, although not fully, despite being loosely coiled, left overnight with the fans running, we still found the green weeded easier than the grey, one cut path on the green opened up, compared to the grey (photo attached)

    I’m pondering if the colour management (max impact, true colour etc) has an effect on it? Obviously it can’t add more ink than the max limit thats set for each chanel and total, but does it have an effect on the density of the ink?

    More testing to be done.

  • David Stevenson

    Member
    January 7, 2022 at 9:57 pm

    Hi David, we’re having the exact same issue as you with our VF2-640. We’d originally a dryer like you’ve built but even after 5 days constant drying the glue on our wrap materials was still very tacky. I’ve a couple of profiles for wrap material (Avery MPI1105 & Arlon) suitable for your ink configuration (Orange & Green?) if you’d like me to send them to you. It’s been commented by our Roland engineer that these profiles lay down less ink and will hopefully help. Haven’t had anything in to wrap this year to test them but hopefully we’ll see an improvement

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 7, 2022 at 10:17 pm

    I was thinking about this issue earlier on, and I didn’t reply because I was trying to remember the proper name/term of the lining paper that carries the digital vinyl. ( my mind is completely blank on this) Anyway, as may know, there are various types. some very cheap easy tearing thin paper, others heavier and coated… Can you have a look at the paper and have a feel of it, tear it and so on, and see if the one that is performing weeding better has a thinner or non-coated paper liner, than the one that isn’t. or vice versa??
    It is just an idea I have but would kill my curiosity on this. ๐Ÿค”

    • Graham Scanlan

      Member
      January 8, 2022 at 4:15 am

      Hi Rob,

      There are 2 different types of liner

      1. Kraft Clay Coated

      1. P.E Coated

      Hope that helps

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 8, 2022 at 7:26 am

    Rob its 2x logos that are a mix of greens and grey, and one logo that is blue & grey.

    These are all printed at the same time, same media, outgassed the same, laminated at the same time, and cut together – Yet I find the green printed areas week much easier – You can literally just RIP the border off, even on small text. The grey & blue areas need ‘poking’ away as they lift with the weed border.

    This is the problem, I do a test cut to get the pressure right, then when it cuts depending on what colour you’ve printed the pressure it too much, or too little.

    It occurs on both Graphtec and Roland cutters, new cutting straps new blades.

    @David-Stevenson I’m using the MD5 profile, from metamark for our machine & ink. I also have the profile for Arlon SLX too.

    I noticed yesterday that the Colour Management Preset in VW was set to “True Rich Colour 3” and it is designed for the green and orange ink, to widen the gamut of colours.

    What I’m going to do next week is print a test file, and change this to other presets.

    If you duplicate the job in the queue, nest them, you can change each one individually by selecting it in settings and see side by side how they look.

    Here’s a link to Roland’s website with the different presets, and there’s an hour-long webinar on YouTube I watched yesterday that explains some of the advanced settings in much more detail.

    https://downloadcenter.rolanddg.com/contents/manuals/VW6_English_R6/topic/tSelectingTheColorSetting.html

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 9, 2022 at 4:48 pm

    Thanks, Graham,
    much appreciated mate. ๐Ÿ‘

    David Hammond making it clear for me that it is the same vinyl, same ink, but a different colour printed at the same time, that is the issue! beats my thoughts on the lining paper anyway.

    Not that this should matter with regards to the colours, but are you using an air release adhesive vinyl, David?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      January 9, 2022 at 5:16 pm

      Yes air release using MD5AB.

      I’m going to experiment with the colour management and see if a) I can see any visible difference between them b) whether the cut is different (although I’m in and out the unit the next week)

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 9, 2022 at 5:31 pm

    I know it is irrelevant here because one weeds and one doesn’t.
    But air-release vinyl is always
    problematic when weeding. More so with laminated digital vinyl.

    It will be interesting to see if the colour management will help.

    • David Hammond

      Member
      January 9, 2022 at 5:36 pm

      Should be equally problematic regardless of colour printed though. ๐Ÿ˜‚

      Will keep experimenting

      • Robert Lambie

        Administrator
        January 9, 2022 at 5:41 pm

        yes, that’s what I meant by it being irrelevant. ๐Ÿ˜€

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 9, 2022 at 5:52 pm

    did you say that this doesn’t happen with other vinyl, David?
    and if so, did that have air release adhesive?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      January 10, 2022 at 7:48 am

      Yes normal CAD Vinyl, and Air Release CAD vinyl (M7A, 551) all seem to cut without issue. I understand they’re thinner, but it should rule out cutting strip issues as the cutter performs fine on these materials.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 10, 2022 at 11:32 am

    Done some test prints this morning with a file I created over the weekend.

    Using the True Colour 3 setting, on the photoprint the colours bleed into each other.
    Using the MaxImpact this doesn’t occur and the colours remain vibrants

    Using the Euroscale, and sign & display some colours loose their vibrancy.

    All printed using the correct MD5 profile, just changing the colour management settings. Perhaps MaxImpact lays down less ink?

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