Activity Feed Forums Printing Discussions Roland Printers Solvent Print out-gassing Roland TR2 Inks, views and opinions please?

  • Solvent Print out-gassing Roland TR2 Inks, views and opinions please?

    Posted by David Hammond on December 14, 2021 at 1:07 pm

    I’ve been having issues when cutting MD5A, with their gloss Laminate using our VF2, running TR2 inks.

    When cutting, the pressure seems uneven – I can rule out the cutter as it performs perfectly cutting CAD vinyl, and the issue occurs on both our Graphtec & Roland Cutters.

    Doing a test cut, it cuts fine on the unprinted area, but when cutting where inks are laid down, the pressure appears to increase. Either cutting through the vinyl fully or snagging it on smaller details.

    Roland claim 6hr outgassing, these were printed yesterday AM, left overnight, laminated this morning then cut. Not quite 24hrs, more 22.

    I’m inclined to think I need to allow longer to outgas, although never had a problem with our OKI, or the VersaArt, both solvent printers.

     

    Just uploaded a video of me weeding a logo.

    Green weeds a treat, the grey is a bit of a bugger, and the unprinted area doesn’t weed great. More pressure it cuts through the printed area, too little and the unprinted/grey area doesn’t weed. – https://youtu.be/R0_CZoODvss

    • This discussion was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  David Hammond.
    • This discussion was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Robert Lambie.
    • This discussion was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Robert Lambie.

    David Hammond replied 3 months, 3 weeks ago 12 Members · 65 Replies
  • 65 Replies
  • Graham Scanlan

    Member
    December 14, 2021 at 8:11 pm

    Hi David,

    What gassing off method do you use?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      December 14, 2021 at 8:19 pm

      Left it on the roll from the take up unit πŸ˜‚

      I know it’s better to stand it up on end, wound loosely, even better still to have a fan drawing air & solvent down and away.

      I’ve spoken with Metamark, and they agree it’s probably outgassing. Might try and whack the heaters up to the max and do some experimenting

  • David Stevenson

    Member
    December 14, 2021 at 11:09 pm

    Hi David, we too have been having huge problems with TR2 inks. I believe we run the same printer (VF2-640). We’ve spoken with our rep and whilst Roland state you can laminate after 6 hours we’ve found for wraps ourselves and others are needing at least 5 days unrolled on a dryer rack!!! Weeding is the exact same as you’re experiencing although I’ve always found printed material horrible to weed at the best of times. We intend now to convert an old steel cabinet into a hardcore drying unit to dump all our materials into. I’ve attached a link I posted explaining the difficulties we’ve been experiencing. I get the feeling TR3 inks will be here sooner rather than later as this is just unacceptable πŸ™

    https://uksignboards.com/forums/discussion/problems-with-rolands-truevis-tr2-inks/

    Problems with Rolands TrueVIS TR2 Inks

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 6:33 am

    I’m glad it isn’t just me!

    It appears to affect the green/orange inks more. Perhaps its the cooler weather making it more noticeable?

    Never needed a drying cabinet, or to faff around with the EcoSol inks.

    What temperatures are you using on the machine?

    • David Stevenson

      Member
      December 17, 2021 at 10:19 am

      We’ve it set to 45c for the Print Heater, and Maxed out the Dryer at 50c. Still doesn’t make any difference. The more saturated the longer to dry and the tackier the glue πŸ™ Apparently Oracal are working on a new profile which will hopefully help. You could try metamarks profile for MPI1105 which is their wrapping vinyl. I have it here if you want it emailed through

  • David Wilde

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 2:53 pm

    When we bought our Roland, the engineer raised his eyebrows considerably when I mentioned the 6 hour gassing off period. We have found 24-48 hours is usually needed and that’s for flat sign panels.

    The issue with the cutting does seem to be a gassing off issue from how you describe it though.

    If it helps we have some old milk crates in the corner of the vinyl room which we loosely stand the rolls on to gas off. Definitely improved the times compared to just standing the rolls on their side.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 4:56 pm

    I spoke to Roland today, they agree it sounds like outgassing issue, but they were surprised as it was 22 hours. That said it’s not something they’ve come across with the cutting and it only affecting certain printed colours more than others.

    That said, they did suggest standing the roll on end, loosely wound, should help the solvent fall away. We’ve some birch ply over from a job so have ordered two fans and will knock up a box to draw the air down over the rolls.

    Their other suggestion was it may be the hot laminator causing and issue and to try cold laminating?

    I’m confident it’s an outgassing issue, but the 6hr claim must only apply if you’ve printed pantone 7603, on a Monday, following a full moon, with an easterly wind not exceeding 4mph, for a client called Brian. 🀨

    No manufacturer of material, inks, machinery, seems to give any indication on how best to outgas prints.

  • David Wilde

    Member
    December 15, 2021 at 5:48 pm

    To be honest, I doubt that’s the case mate.

    Pantone 7603 is a medium/dark brown and heavy in ink saturation….

    • David Hammond

      Member
      December 17, 2021 at 2:58 pm

      My attempt at humour 🀣

      Reprinted, left on end overnight, same issue on one logo. Roland have the print file for them to test and see if they can replicate it.

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    December 17, 2021 at 9:13 pm

    The best way to work out if it is the vinyl or the inks is to properly test them “as best you can”.

    1, Laminate a foot or two of MD5. (no print)
    2, Laminate a foot or two of another brand digital and laminate. (no print)
    3, Laminate a foot or two of solid panels of Printed CMYK in both brands of digital.
    (Allow 24hrs to outgas.)
    4, Set the blade pressure and note it down.
    4, Now cut the alphabet in lowercase and capitals in the following sizes.
    18mm – 30mm – 50mm
    5, Now try and weed them all, and note problematic letters and sizes as you do.

    Doing this will let you see if the vinyl is the issue with or without ink/print.
    It will let you see if the ink has the same effect on both media at the same time, settings and all else.
    It could be that the solvent has an adverse effect on the print medias adhesive. because contrary to what many think, it is not just the vinyl that is affected by the solvent, but the adhesive is too. the solvent may have 90% gone from the vinyl, but could be 70% still in the adhesive.

    All that aside, it could be that the manufacturer is having issues with their adhesive coating.
    Over the past ten years, this has happened twice “that I have heard of” with Oracal 651. Which is NOT a digital vinyl. Many sign makers had a spell where it was weeding very poorly. basically, the vinyl was cut perfectly fine. but those that left the vinyl sitting unweeded, found it a nightmare to weed! Apparently, the adhesive was gel’ing back together after it had been cut. if you just cut and weeded right away it was pretty much spot on. but leave it 30 minutes or so and it was a different situation.

    I know you have tried various vinyl etc. and did not have a problem. but i would suggest trying a brand new blade and getting the pressure to cut light, but not making a mark/score in the carrying liner. see how that goes?
    Also, looking at the freeze frame of your video, I can see that the pressure is too high on the blade or the blade is on its road out. this creates the appearance of more of a
    chamfered cut, which catches the light much more, making it very visible like in the attached photo.

    either way, it would be great to hear how you get on with this David. makes great reading and help for others with the same problem, mate. πŸ‘

    David Stevenson, sorry mate, I missed that reply in that other post you made mate. definitely, a better solution for out-gassing than just sitting. πŸ‘

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 19, 2021 at 4:31 pm

    You’re right Rob, the pressure is too high on the green, but then too low on the grey, despite it being fine on the test cut on the unprinted area before cutting.

    I’ve ruled out the blade using a new blade.

    The cutting strip is OK, and if it was the strip would affect all areas that are cut in the same spot. I’m reluctant to change it just to damage it whilst we have the issue.

    I need to do some testing that sounds like a job for Tuesday.

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    December 19, 2021 at 4:45 pm

    Having watched the video again mate, I think I have sussed why things are difficult to weed.
    It’s that bloody background music, please ask Paul to turn that off during all future tests and trials. πŸ€¨πŸ€£πŸ€£πŸ˜‰

    • David Hammond

      Member
      December 20, 2021 at 8:24 am

      My choice of music, I find it keeps me calm when silly things like this happen… listening to death metal results in the offending item being launched around the workshop πŸ˜‚

      • Robert Lambie

        Administrator
        December 20, 2021 at 1:26 pm

        I always had the radio playing loud in the workshop or while driving. but the past 10 years, it just irritates me and i turn it off. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with some good background music but Christmas songs etc 😳😩

        🀣

        • David Hammond

          Member
          December 20, 2021 at 1:57 pm

          Classic FM, we’re very cultured, and the music tends to be longer, with less talking

          πŸ˜‚

          Back to the problem in hand, we’ve to two large extractor fans, and will be modifying a cupboard into an drying unit, with heater element at the top, and fans to draw the air down through the bottom.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 20, 2021 at 4:51 pm

    2x 10inch, 240v fans have arrived to aid the outgassing process…

    They certainly shift some air – https://youtu.be/I8mAr0M3wP8

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 21, 2021 at 10:29 am

    Did someone say air flow aids outgassing πŸ˜‚
    Fans are fitted, in the new year we’ll make to ‘chimneys’ to fit around them, to house the graphics, and install a double switch so they can be turned on & off separately.

    • David Stevenson

      Member
      December 28, 2021 at 10:12 pm

      Tidy bit of work there David. I built something very similar a few years back to aid drying although we still struggle with the prints from the VF2-640. Your fans though are huge compared to what we’re using, time for an upgrade for us I think. Where did you buy the fans if you don’t mind me asking? Something you might want to bear in mind if you intend on sitting the rolls directly on top of those fan guards is they’ll bend pretty quick with the weight of the rolls. Might do no harm to make a “X” shape out of some 25mm H x 15mm W laths to take the weight.

  • Chris Wilson

    Member
    December 28, 2021 at 1:09 pm

    Hey David,

    Hope all is well.

    Are you enjoying the machine overall? I’ve got a VG2 lined up with the orange ink. Worth it? Or do you find yourself swearing at it more than you thought?

    • David Stevenson

      Member
      December 28, 2021 at 2:52 pm

      Here’s a comparison of the orange from our CMYK LC LM LK XR640 vs the VF2-640 with orange ink! Results speak for themselves .

  • David Hammond

    Member
    December 28, 2021 at 1:18 pm

    No issues with the machine, had to have an engineer out early on as it wouldn’t print in the centre of the media, a small batch left the factory with something incorrectly set.

    The green/orange work well for us as we do mainly vehicle graphics so the extra vibrancy comes in handy.

    This outgassing issue is a first for us after many years using solvent machines, but we’ll suss it out, I have the customer bringing two Van’s in the new year so we’ll see if the new fans help.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 5, 2022 at 11:23 am

    Here it is in all its glory, the MK1 drying unit.

    Got the same customer booked in on Monday, and the artwork still on the rip, so intend to print the same file, and drop it in here to help outgas, and see if the results are the same.

    I’ve another smaller job at the moment, so have one in the dryer and one hung over the laminator and will see if there’s a noticeable difference.

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 5, 2022 at 3:44 pm

    I love the fact you have spent time and money to try and eliminate this problem for your business, David. So many complain about this long term issue, yet none try to properly solve it!
    I do not just mean sign and print companies, but more so, the solvent printer manufacturers. As it would be in the very best interest to help reduce the wait time or better the result after the wait time.
    I have spoken about this for 15+ years on UKSB and it was included in part of my UKSG wrap training course, and I am no expert in it all. yet the basic principles of reducing the drying time and residual solvent in the prints, seem to be ignored by our industry!

    Anyway, it’s great to see what you are doing and it’s very interesting to see how you get on with it.

    Do your fans have a forward and reverse option?
    Do they have speed settings?

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 6, 2022 at 10:08 am

    We’re trying and we have a bit of a conclusion.

    The fans don’t have a speed controller (yet) and are set to suck only. They were sucking so hard it caused the media to draw together when loosely rolled, so some masking tape to reduce airflow resolved that.

    We left the prints in about 20hrs, and laminated this morning.

    1 set we’re putting through our Roland GR cutter, it behaved mostly, with the exception of some smaller text which for some reason it decided would go through the backing! Tried a new blade, and a new red tipped blade which is a smaller diameter point, and the same occurred. Cutting strip is (was) new too. It’s snagging, and dragging the text, lifting if off the backing.

    The second set are going to be cut on out trusty Graphtec FC8600, and I don’t anticipate their being a problem..

    So yes the unit does appear to have aided the outgassing – However, we’re still not entirely satisfied with the Roland Cutter.

    I’ll update how things progress!

  • Gary Forbes

    Member
    January 7, 2022 at 11:05 am

    I have completely missed this topic. great idea David, how much did the fans cost? they look powerful!

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 7, 2022 at 11:14 am

    They are powerful, if anything to powerful and overkill, they pull the media in on itself restricting the airflow over some parts.

    It has resolved the issue to some extent, although not fully, despite being loosely coiled, left overnight with the fans running, we still found the green weeded easier than the grey, one cut path on the green opened up, compared to the grey (photo attached)

    I’m pondering if the colour management (max impact, true colour etc) has an effect on it? Obviously it can’t add more ink than the max limit thats set for each chanel and total, but does it have an effect on the density of the ink?

    More testing to be done.

  • David Stevenson

    Member
    January 7, 2022 at 9:57 pm

    Hi David, we’re having the exact same issue as you with our VF2-640. We’d originally a dryer like you’ve built but even after 5 days constant drying the glue on our wrap materials was still very tacky. I’ve a couple of profiles for wrap material (Avery MPI1105 & Arlon) suitable for your ink configuration (Orange & Green?) if you’d like me to send them to you. It’s been commented by our Roland engineer that these profiles lay down less ink and will hopefully help. Haven’t had anything in to wrap this year to test them but hopefully we’ll see an improvement

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 7, 2022 at 10:17 pm

    I was thinking about this issue earlier on, and I didn’t reply because I was trying to remember the proper name/term of the lining paper that carries the digital vinyl. ( my mind is completely blank on this) Anyway, as may know, there are various types. some very cheap easy tearing thin paper, others heavier and coated… Can you have a look at the paper and have a feel of it, tear it and so on, and see if the one that is performing weeding better has a thinner or non-coated paper liner, than the one that isn’t. or vice versa??
    It is just an idea I have but would kill my curiosity on this. πŸ€”

    • Graham Scanlan

      Member
      January 8, 2022 at 4:15 am

      Hi Rob,

      There are 2 different types of liner

      1. Kraft Clay Coated

      1. P.E Coated

      Hope that helps

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 8, 2022 at 7:26 am

    Rob its 2x logos that are a mix of greens and grey, and one logo that is blue & grey.

    These are all printed at the same time, same media, outgassed the same, laminated at the same time, and cut together – Yet I find the green printed areas week much easier – You can literally just RIP the border off, even on small text. The grey & blue areas need ‘poking’ away as they lift with the weed border.

    This is the problem, I do a test cut to get the pressure right, then when it cuts depending on what colour you’ve printed the pressure it too much, or too little.

    It occurs on both Graphtec and Roland cutters, new cutting straps new blades.

    @David-Stevenson I’m using the MD5 profile, from metamark for our machine & ink. I also have the profile for Arlon SLX too.

    I noticed yesterday that the Colour Management Preset in VW was set to “True Rich Colour 3” and it is designed for the green and orange ink, to widen the gamut of colours.

    What I’m going to do next week is print a test file, and change this to other presets.

    If you duplicate the job in the queue, nest them, you can change each one individually by selecting it in settings and see side by side how they look.

    Here’s a link to Roland’s website with the different presets, and there’s an hour-long webinar on YouTube I watched yesterday that explains some of the advanced settings in much more detail.

    https://downloadcenter.rolanddg.com/contents/manuals/VW6_English_R6/topic/tSelectingTheColorSetting.html

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 9, 2022 at 4:48 pm

    Thanks, Graham,
    much appreciated mate. πŸ‘

    David Hammond making it clear for me that it is the same vinyl, same ink, but a different colour printed at the same time, that is the issue! beats my thoughts on the lining paper anyway.

    Not that this should matter with regards to the colours, but are you using an air release adhesive vinyl, David?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      January 9, 2022 at 5:16 pm

      Yes air release using MD5AB.

      I’m going to experiment with the colour management and see if a) I can see any visible difference between them b) whether the cut is different (although I’m in and out the unit the next week)

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 9, 2022 at 5:31 pm

    I know it is irrelevant here because one weeds and one doesn’t.
    But air-release vinyl is always
    problematic when weeding. More so with laminated digital vinyl.

    It will be interesting to see if the colour management will help.

    • David Hammond

      Member
      January 9, 2022 at 5:36 pm

      Should be equally problematic regardless of colour printed though. πŸ˜‚

      Will keep experimenting

      • Robert Lambie

        Administrator
        January 9, 2022 at 5:41 pm

        yes, that’s what I meant by it being irrelevant. πŸ˜€

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    January 9, 2022 at 5:52 pm

    did you say that this doesn’t happen with other vinyl, David?
    and if so, did that have air release adhesive?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      January 10, 2022 at 7:48 am

      Yes normal CAD Vinyl, and Air Release CAD vinyl (M7A, 551) all seem to cut without issue. I understand they’re thinner, but it should rule out cutting strip issues as the cutter performs fine on these materials.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    January 10, 2022 at 11:32 am

    Done some test prints this morning with a file I created over the weekend.

    Using the True Colour 3 setting, on the photoprint the colours bleed into each other.
    Using the MaxImpact this doesn’t occur and the colours remain vibrants

    Using the Euroscale, and sign & display some colours loose their vibrancy.

    All printed using the correct MD5 profile, just changing the colour management settings. Perhaps MaxImpact lays down less ink?

  • David Hammond

    Member
    February 9, 2022 at 10:58 am

    I’ve been in communication with Roland UK who to be fair are next to useless.

    Having sent printed samples to them, they’ve not actually tried test cuts, and by the time I did speak to someone would have outgassed themselves.

    Their advice was to speak with Metamark, almost with a hint that it was their fault, and find out what testing and settings they recommend.

    Metamark in fairness have been far more understanding, and are conducting their own testing – In essence the 6hr outgassing is, well, bollocks.

    I then enquired with Roland as to on what basis they make the claim of 6hr outgassing, and what testing they have done in order to make this claim.

    Roland’s reply below:

    β€œTests performed by Avery Dennisonβ„’ US on MPI Range digital media. When using this media, prints produced on VF2 and VG2 with TR2 ink can be laminated after a 6-hour period when rolls or images are properly ventilated and loosely wound. For more detail see:”

    Anyone that knows me, and my interest in law, I’ve gone back to clarify a few points.

    1) The inks were tested with 1 media, and in the US. – Yet the inks, and machines are advertised as “6 hour outgassing” around the glob, with the above detail hidden in the footer. I’m sure most will admit that this restriction was not advertised clearly at the time of purchase.

    2) images are properly ventilated and loosely wound” What exactly does this vague term mean? What is “properly ventilated” and what is “loosely wound”.


    The entire claim of 6hour outgassing is borderline farcical, unless you’re in the US, using Avery Media, and understand specifically what Roland refer to as “properly ventilated” and “loosely wound”.

    This then poses a whole manner of other questions.

    What images were printed, the ink coverage, profiles, colour management?
    How was it tested after 6 hours? Stuck to a flat board, or applied as a wrap?

    What were the criteria for the testing?

    I’m very doubtful we’ll ever get the answers to these and Roland won’t back up their 6-hour claim. I might start using Avery MPI myself to test this 6hr claim!

  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    February 9, 2022 at 10:04 pm

    Interesting feedback, David. But I am not surprised, mate…

    I understand Roland’s view on this, that it is possibly Metamarks problem because the issue is occurring with their media. But if this is an issue, then they SHOULD be more interested and want to find out if it is affecting any other vinyl brands, or is it isolated to just Metamark?

    I am not sure if Matamark is an official Roland media partner as such, but if they are, both parties should really want to find out if this issue has been reported by others, rather than dismissing it or passing the buck! Unfortunately, the problem is most likely going unreported by the users, like you and I, so it flys well below the radar!

    What I am more surprised about is the 6-hour claim by Avery on this grade of vinyl. When they will not warrant lamination of their vehicle wrapping vinyl any sooner than 92 hours. Which I am not knocking, as I can understand why, But still!

    I think the real issue when making a complaint to any company like this, is who you actually speak with. most, are just a small cog in a huge wheel and their knowledge is limited to textbook information which is never real-world test results and is often outdated.

    • David Hammond

      Member
      February 9, 2022 at 10:11 pm

      What is Rob is a load of marketing Bull s**t.

      Our printed graphics will not fade for 10 years*

      Printed on MD5 and locked in a box for 10 years.

      To what extent has it been tested? Might get away with a vinyl thats not outgassed fully on flat panels, but what about a wrap?

      What if I swap to Avery Vinyl and the problems still occur? Will Roland do something then?

      Even the company who supplied the machine couldn’t tell me which media the 6hrs applies too, and are looking into it.

  • David Stevenson

    Member
    February 9, 2022 at 11:10 pm

    We’ve tried wrapping with Avery MPI1105 after letting it dry for a few days (printed on VF2-640 with TR2 inks). The glue was extremely tacky and had lost it’s repositionable properties, the air release also didn’t work which combined made fitting a nightmare. We’ve also had similar issues with Oracal 3951GRA which had dried as recommended for over a week, and the same with Metamark MD-C. Trying to wrap with anything printed on the VF is a pain in the arse. Currently in talks with Roland (Rob) trying to get a profile made to work with Onyx as there’s nothing at all available. Absolute nightmare πŸ™

  • Kevin Mahoney

    Member
    February 10, 2022 at 7:54 am

    When I bought the Epson a while back, I was given a similar story regarding out gassing & drying times. I let most of it go in one ear & out the other & stuck to our regular process & times. No issues at all. The fact that you boys are leaving it for a week & still having issues tells me the ink isn’t fit for purpose, I’d be demanding my money back now. Absolutely outrageous claims by Roland, I don’t believe they’ve tested it at all but rather let some creative writing class come up with the advertising blurb. I sympathise with your predicament

  • David Hammond

    Member
    February 10, 2022 at 7:57 am

    You’re entirely correct Kevin.

    The 6hr out gassing wasn’t the main selling point of the machine, but it does annoy me when we’re leaving some graphics 24-48hrs, and STILL get the problems. It’s too hit and miss.

    It might be fine on a flat panel, but wrapping it could result in a full reprint and re-wrap.

    The guidance from Roland is woeful, and totally inadequate.

  • Chris Wilson

    Member
    February 10, 2022 at 10:09 am

    Oh great. Ours arrives on the 18th…………

    • David Hammond

      Member
      February 10, 2022 at 10:14 am

      It’s a great machine, the colours are brilliant. BUT this 6hr outgassing is utter pish.

      Out of interest, ask the supplier of the machine the specifics about the 6hr outgassing.

      • Robert Lambie

        Administrator
        February 17, 2022 at 12:48 am

        BUT this 6hr outgassing is utter pish.BUT this 6hr outgassing is utter pish.

        no no, David, say what you really mean mate!? 🀣

        • David Hammond

          Member
          February 17, 2022 at 5:10 am

          You know me Rob, straight to the point.

          However, Roland are sending me some blades for the plotter, not sure how they expect that to help πŸ™„

  • Jeff

    Member
    February 10, 2022 at 10:42 am

    I have always said, we are the guinea pigs for many things.

    the manufacturers cover their back at every turn so the warranties mean zilch!.

  • Darren.Summers Darren Summers

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 5:11 pm

    Hi David,

    I hope you ressolve your issues – I’m sorry but, I cannot help in any way. I just wondered if you could let me know where you got the fans from please?

    • David Hammond

      Member
      February 17, 2022 at 5:11 am

      I can’t remember the site, but search vevor fans πŸ‘

  • David Hammond

    Member
    February 22, 2022 at 8:52 am

    We’re still no further on.

    Roland haven’t told me what specific MPI media they conducted their test on, or what colour management and profile they used.

    There doesn’t seem to be an Avery specific profile for the VF2, with the ink configuration we use.

    However they’ll send me some plotter blades, like that’s going to magically resolve the issue! πŸ™„

    As far as I’m concerned they can either stand by their claim, or come and collect the piece of junk and I’ll go with the HP Latex.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    February 22, 2022 at 5:23 pm

    Well, there it is in Black & white, from Roland themselves.

    Can’t see that on their marketing materials and links they provided.

    Not that 6hr is what sold me on the machine, as we can afford to leave it longer, but the green and orange inks are why we purchased it. Even after leaving the prints 24+ hrs still it doesn’t outgas fully. Its defies the point of having or & gr, might as well have bought a latex.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  David Hammond.
  • Robert Lambie

    Administrator
    February 22, 2022 at 11:03 pm

    I cannot say I am surprised, David.
    I wrote something in another post the past fortnight on UKSB. about how manufacturers do not hold all the answers to our problems with their products. they rely on “us lot” as guineapigs to complain enough for them to make right, or they carry on as before, blissfully unaware, whilst we are out of pocket and pulling our hair out.

    I don’t blame Roland for not knowing this happens with this specific combination of Metamark and their ink, to then be cut in text at a certain size and colour. the variables are vast and understandable that it is missed. but they are guilty of not being clear that what they promote is based on “one single media” and that is Avery series-xxxx.

    It is clear to printer and ink manufacturers that all media react differently to certain inks, or there wouldn’t be a never-ending list of profiles being done.
    So if a vinyl manufacturer is profiling for print output quality then logic tells me that they should also be performing laminated and non-laminated vinyl cut tests amongst other tests. However, my guess is that perhaps they are only truly interested in official print partner testing.

    • David Hammond

      Member
      February 23, 2022 at 11:04 am

      We’re not being guinea pigs, we’re blatantly being lied to. 😑

      Nowhere does it state the Orange & Green inks are not covered by the 6hr outgassing. Roland clearly knew about this, but instead have tried to lay blame elsewhere, before finally acknowledging the fact.

      Compare that with the HP latex machines. They have HP Latex Certified media, I can go on the Metamark website, and download the certification, with the specifications of what settings were used for the test.

  • Jamie Wood

    Member
    February 23, 2022 at 12:46 pm

    I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I was convinced that Roland would try and wriggle out of it, and they have. If they sell a certain ink configuration, there is no excuse not to include it in any test scenarios. So basically, they are bullshitting.

    • David Hammond

      Member
      February 23, 2022 at 12:50 pm

      I agree, I appreciate the variables involved, but they’ve marketed the machine & ink, whilst being very selective with the truth.

      • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  David Hammond.
  • Mark Johnston

    Member
    February 28, 2022 at 7:09 am

    have you had the printer for long david?
    can you not complain and exchange for a different type of printer or did it come from roland?

  • David Hammond

    Member
    February 28, 2022 at 8:24 am

    I was going to update this post on Friday, but got distracted.

    Firstly, all credit to Jay at Signmaster who did escalate my concerns higher within Roland.

    Roland have looked into the initial reports I made to them, and acknowledge there’s room for improvement, I also appreciate they’re getting inundated with support requests, often blaming the machine or inks, when in fact it could be media, or operator error.

    All credit to Roland, they’ve put a couple of suggestions forward, and are actually working with us to try and resolve the issue. They suspect it may be a profile issue, whilst the generic profiles are acceptable in the lab in Japan, in the real world perhaps no so much. Some media manufacturers use the generic profile as a foundation for their media profiles, and whilst they may be happy with the print quality, there may be unexpected things like this.

    The issue would probably have gone un-noticed if it wasn’t a print & cut job. As we’ve done a few vans for the same customer we could replicate it, ruling out cutters, blades etc.

    Hopefully we’ll be making some headway this week πŸ‘

  • Chris Wilson

    Member
    February 28, 2022 at 8:52 pm

    Right am in the game.

    VG3 comes out tomorrow. Wrong time to buy for me but hey ho.

    So I am running versaworks 6. Orange and green ink with the extra magenta. Had the machine a week. Generic profiles are not the best. If I go on versaworks profile centre there is no orange ink option. Changed my region to USA and boom, loads appeared with correct ink configuration.

    So far just been printing flat panels. In our normal routine so gassing out for 2/3 days on Avery MPI 2000 and some site signs on 3164. All seemed ok. Printed out first wrap on Arlon SLX on Tuesday. Laminated today. Started applying late today. Seems fine. No tackie-Ness and glides around as should. It is mainly green. 80% of it is green. Bright green.

    Onto some print and cut stuff tomorrow. Done a little bit but engineer did terrible job Of setting the blade up. Tweaked this morning with a freshie and will see what like.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    February 28, 2022 at 9:03 pm

    I’ve got Roland coming Thursday to profile our machine and inks (orange, green, and magenta too) so we should make some headway.

    The colours are awesome, so I hope they can sort it out

  • Chris Wilson

    Member
    March 8, 2022 at 9:06 pm

    Hey david,

    How did things go with roland?

    I’ve had a couple of weeks at it now. Vinyl does feel different. Not in a bad way. Almost heavier, maybe a wee bit more tacky.

    We went with the VG2 and like yourself am struggling with the to get the cut pressures sweet. What I am finding is having the blade coming out the holder where it should be is fine for colour cut vinyl. 60g of pressure and it weeds lovely. However it doesn’t matter what I crank it up to for print and cut its not so good. So I am taking the blade holder out and wee tiny turn of more blade and at 185g it weeds beautifully again. But then even with the pressure right down to nothing for colour cut vinyl, it’s now taking the backing paper with it. It works. But it’s not ideal having to take it in and out all the time switching between jobs.

    We don’t have this problem with our old VS. Once blade is set to right depth it’s just a case of adjusting the pressure to suit and off she goes for a couple of months till it’s new blade time. New machine is certainly faster, more streamlined and more accurate.

    Did do a wee rush job yesterday. Which was heavy on red and black and left it for 6hrs. It felt fine. Looked fine. Cut fine going off my madness above.. maybe I’ll get a phone call in a few weeks to say otherwise, certainly not what I will be doing regularly but it was ok I guess.

    • David Hammond

      Member
      March 9, 2022 at 6:19 am

      The engineer who was coming has come down with Covid.

      The engineer I did speak to suggested adjusting the blade depth so that it physically cannot cut through the backing.

      Got a few biggish jobs on at the moment but they’re not print & cut, should have an engineer end of this week, or early next week.

  • David Hammond

    Member
    March 11, 2022 at 3:14 pm

    **Update**

    Roland sent out their profiling engineer today with a view to adjusting the profiles.

    Within 5minutes of the engineer entering, he asked about the temperatures the print & drier were set to. These being set when the last engineer visited.

    Looking at some of the prints we’ve produced, the orange peel effect, is the ink pooling on the surface, not drying before the next pass, and the ink just building – not good.

    Even some of the colour swatches we’ve printed there appears to be a darker line around some colours. As if the ink is running out to the edges.

    Turned up the temps on the heaters, and that seems to be resolved, and we can assume would aid outgassing with less solvent sat on the surface.

    I did ask Metamark tech support if they thought cracking the heat up would help, but told it makes little difference. It appears it ‘could’.

    The issue with the cutting, engineer clocked the vacuum wasn’t at its highest, so set to Auto, and it should pull down the vinyl onto the bed.

    Lots of test cuts straight off the machine, laminated, unlaminated, using different blades and holders.

    Too early to tell if, or what the exact solution is, but we’re making progress.

    Our workshop isn’t particularly warm, the tmerpatures of the heaters are higher than usual, but the media seems capable of handling it.

    We’ll do further testing when I get time, and see what the outgassing times 6hrs & 24hrs makes, and see if I can find a definitive solution on cutter, whether its a the smart knife causing issues.