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  • BN-20 Printing nearly gone?

     Chris Jarvis updated 1 year, 1 month ago 6Members · 34 Posts
  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 5, 2019 at 7:58 pm

    Hello all,

    I printed a job today, but noticed that the machine was only printing with CYAN ink.
    The print quality was fine, but there was lot of ‘gunge’ being left at either side of the material and under the rollers.
    The ‘gunge’ is fairly clear stuff on the whole, but with the odd bit of black matter.
    (see photo attached):
    Then the print quality went on the CYAN too. Black, yellow, magenta have gone, and don’t show at all on the nozzle check.
    (see photo showing the very little that’s left on the nozzle check):

    Any advice on steps to fix the problem would be appreciated.

    Thank you.

    The above happened suddenly.
    The printer was working fine up to that point, apart from a very small problem with mists of black ink only, and only at the best print setting. Not enough for anyone to notice but me, so far.

    Chris


    Attachments:

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 8, 2019 at 10:35 am

    have you worked this out yet.
    what ink set
    was it sticky then dried still sticky or took a age to dry. what residue other than ink is in the cap top

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 8, 2019 at 12:09 pm

    Hi Chris,

    Thank you for replying, as ever.

    No, I’ve not worked anything out yet.
    The ink set is CMYK and White.

    The ‘gunge’ dried up fairly quickly.
    I tried to do a cut job since, and it deposited something that looks like it’s from the dregs of white ink cartridge.
    A day after I lost the print function, (yesterday Sat.) I got the warning beep that the white cartridge was empty.

    The consistancy of the ‘gunge’ is either clear with black particles in it, or sometimes the odd lump of white.

    I did a manual clean, and I saw some ‘blooms’ of white on a couple of areas on the underside of the print head?

    The cap top looks normal. I’ll take a photo of it.
    Judging by how long the original cap head lasted, the machine is overdue another cap head.
    The first one lasted 2 and a half years and I’ve had the machine for 6 years now. I fitted the last (gen. Roland) one myself.

    Thank you for any advice on the best way for me to get up an running again.
    ‘Hope it’s not going to cost more money than I can possibly raise.

    Chris

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 8, 2019 at 2:48 pm

    Here’s the cap head Chris:


    Attachments:

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 8, 2019 at 2:59 pm

    Here’s the ‘gunge’ that it left in the middle of the last ‘cut only’ job.
    As well as the same stuff under the right side roller.
    There was quite a lot of solvent in it, it seeped into the cut lines and made a mess of the ‘cut only’ job.


    Attachments:

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 8, 2019 at 9:06 pm

    yes was thinking it was from either white or silver clear carrier
    the cap top is desperately in need of replacement as its wet so not clearing well enough with will have affected the other colours. presume you dont use the white often needs a new cap top every 6 mts because of the white.
    has this been converted to the max2 white yet.
    i would fit new wiper felt and cap top (genuine only) and head soak for a day before one powerful clean hopefully all will return.
    bear in mind that the pipes and damper is full of this stuff and if you get it going then print large areas of white to clear this through

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 9, 2019 at 7:03 am

    Thank you very much Chris,

    I will do as you say, and get back to you. ‘Fingers crossed.
    What exactly is the procedure for a ‘head soak’?

    Yes, I always use genuine Roland parts/inks.
    It is already converted to Max 2 on the white. It was a case of having to.

    Chris J.

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 9, 2019 at 11:13 am

    these may help

    dont know the bn is there a command in the menu to do circulations if so do several and keep shaking the white cart every day + if you can a extra circulation to keep the white mixed in the tubes.
    from experience the white max 2 is better to use but does require you to be on top of it all the time the capping seal has to be kept spotless other wise it allows air in resulting in poor cleaning of all colours and drying white quicker in the nozzles stopping the flow of white and causing separation in the head and damper. only very regular use will prevent this.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 9, 2019 at 11:56 am

    Thanks Chris,

    I’m assuming I need to carry out the head soak, after I’ve fitted the new cap head?

    I’ve read that the head soak is possible on the BN-20, but more time consuming to get access.

    Anyhow, I’ll report back.
    I should get the genuine cap head tomorrow (Tues 10th).

    Chris J.

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 9, 2019 at 3:46 pm

    my idea of a head soak was to desolve any fluid carrier on the head surface and should be done with a new cap top.
    you could try it all with out the soak and see how it goes.
    to my mind oddly they say you should not wipe the head surface when cleaning with a swab but the machine wipes the head with a rubber scraper on every clean.. common sense has to apply . its only a very thin coating of gold which nothing should stick too.
    use a mirror and torch to have a better look when the head is over to the left cleaning area.
    from my experience with this type of head is if the pump and captop are all good then it self cleans very well but you have to keep tidying up any reside to keep it clean and sealing.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 9, 2019 at 3:57 pm

    Thanks Chris,

    Yes, I often feel like wiping something more than just those two strips either side of the head.
    I never do though, because I just do as it says for each manual clean.

    I suppose this is why the wipers need to be in tip top condition all the time?
    The felt one does seem to end up a bit soggy not far into its life.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 12, 2019 at 9:21 am
    quote Chris Wool:

    my idea of a head soak was to desolve any fluid carrier on the head surface and should be done with a new cap top.
    you could try it all with out the soak and see how it goes.

    Hi Chris,

    I’ve fitted a new genuine cap top and genuine felt wiper.
    I soaked the head for 24hrs.
    I stopped the cleaning fluid draining away by connecting the two cap head pipes with a short section of the old cap head pipe.
    I put it all back together, and tried a nozzle check.
    There is no printing whatsoever.
    The only improvement is that it no longer deposits anything onto the media, so I can cut at least.

    What do you think I should do next?

    Thanks for any help.

    Chris J.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 13, 2019 at 12:14 pm

    Any suggestions on what to do next?

    Thank you.

    Chris

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 13, 2019 at 4:24 pm

    after putting back together did you do one powerful clean is the ink actually flowing

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 13, 2019 at 4:30 pm
    quote Chris Wool:

    after putting back together did you do one powerful clean is the ink actually flowing

    Hi Chris,

    I did do one powerful clean.
    I think I might have done that before the head soak though?

    The cap head looks completely normal for a healthy machine. As in, the distribution of ink colours.
    The machine has left a very very small deposit of greeny blue matter ink on the left side media guide, but nothing on the media itself.

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 11:42 am

    you have done the basics and we are not getting anywhere.
    ink deposits at one end of the travel normally means the wiper is not doing its job or damper problem
    the cap top if not sealing will lead to poor cleaning
    if the cap top is wet (like your original pic) then either blocked or pump not scavenging blocked pipes etc even the pump its self, ink on the gears is a give away.
    are there just a few nozzles printing or actually non at all.
    i once used the wrong cleaning fluid and lost the lot for a while as it dried out to quickly.
    really depends on you abilities to watch whats happening and think it through after that its really time for a tech even a new head etc.
    best of luck

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 12:08 pm
    quote Chris Wool:

    you have done the basics and we are not getting anywhere.
    ink deposits at one end of the travel normally means the wiper is not doing its job or damper problem
    the cap top if not sealing will lead to poor cleaning
    if the cap top is wet (like your original pic) then either blocked or pump not scavenging blocked pipes etc even the pump its self, ink on the gears is a give away.
    are there just a few nozzles printing or actually non at all.
    i once used the wrong cleaning fluid and lost the lot for a while as it dried out to quickly.
    really depends on you abilities to watch whats happening and think it through after that its really time for a tech even a new head etc.
    best of luck

    Hi Chris,

    Thanks again for your continued replies.
    There are no nozzles printing at all. Absolutely nothing.
    I have been using the genuine Roland cleaning fluid, supplied by Grafityp.
    Yes, I’ve got the feeling it’s new head time too.
    What should I budget for? No doubt I’ll need to borrow.
    If it’s not possible for me to fund the servicing, I’m out of business.

    Another thing:
    There is a lot of black ink in the bottom of the machine, from below the wiper(s).
    Where is the waste from what the wipers wipe off, supposed to end up?
    This is something that’s been going on for quite a while, by the looks, not connected to the (white ink?) problem that has just killed the print function.

  • Neil Davey

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 12:47 pm

    Hi Chris, it may be worth trying this:

    It’s helped me in the past.
    Leave overnight with the machine powered down and perform printhead tests in-between soaks to see if there’s any progress.
    Also, is your machine in a cold climate?, through the winter put a small oil filled radiator in the vicinity of the capping station or ink cartridges set to come on about 5am till 10am and then around 8pm to midnight. This should keep the viscosity of the ink low aiding in the cleaning cycle and printing.

  • Chris Wilson

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 1:11 pm

    If your thinking about re-building this and borrowing I would go with something new/second user. I don’t know how much it’s going to cost but new head, cap station the works and a engineers fee its going to be 3k minimum I would of thought. And if they doesn’t work and it’s the lines or goodness know what else your even more out of pocket, more down time etc..

    I’ve seen a few SG300 ex demo machines knocking about for not much more than that, plenty of the bigger size to.

    I’ve heard of people using IPA on heads before. Moving left to right with the swab. Am sure I read Kevin on here has tried various things not so recommend and brought machines back to life. If your at rock bottom with it you might as well try. I would.
    But I does still sound like and look like all the other bits are clogg up to.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 1:51 pm

    Thanks Neil,

    The machine is in the (heated) house, in a spare room with the door shut.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 1:56 pm

    Thanks Chris,

    If I need to buy a new or ex demo machine, then it really is game over.

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 4:15 pm

    there is one option i haven’t mentioned
    you say that the ink is flowing and lines of ink on the cap top but none of the nozzles firing just possible the head fuse has gone but beyond me on here to say how to test it.. if there is or has been ink on the cables or sockets, printed boards or cables removed while switched on etc a possibility.
    only you can decide the economics of it but probably possible to sub the print work out while you make your mind up. afterall you have the customer and the file just need it printed.

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 4:21 pm

    and while i think of it
    it was ipa i used on one head as i had run out of cleaning fluid hadn’t been suggested or recommended just thought a good idea of mine at the time WRONG as i said it dries out too quick took me ages to get back to life.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 4:44 pm

    Thanks Chris,

    I’d have a look at the fuse, if I knew where it was.
    I’m guessing all the circuitry is where the power comes in?

    Subbing the print jobs out, wouldn’t work for me.
    My designs are kind of set in stone, and I print immediately to meet on-line orders.
    I don’t like other people having my artwork files, especially the ones that have real commercial value.

    I know what you mean though, if it’s the only option?

  • Chris Wool

    Member
    December 14, 2019 at 5:25 pm

    its a special fuse that don’t really look like a fuse tucked away on one of the main boards and may be soldered on so only checked or changed by a competent engineer and is there only to protect the head every thing else will work.

    you must know a friendly local shop
    example not touting for work
    i print for other people and considering myself as a professional their files are their files end of. only been asked once about file integrity told them as above.

  • Kevin Mahoney

    Member
    December 16, 2019 at 8:58 am

    Have you used a syringe to pull any ink through or just done powerful cleans? I would still get an engineer on the case before looking at a replacement printer, if only to give you something worth selling to help pay for it. It will cost you around £400 for a visit but ask lots of questions, even for different issues you may have had in the past, worth every penny if you learn something. Andy Malcolm from ADM services is a great bloke. He doesn’t come for free but his knowledge is huge & he’ll get your machine running by hook or by crook.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 16, 2019 at 12:37 pm

    Thanks for that Kevin,

    I’ll certainly consider him.
    I will be asking questions.

    Chris

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 16, 2019 at 6:50 pm
    quote Kevin Mahoney:

    Andy Malcolm from ADM services is a great bloke. He doesn’t come for free but his knowledge is huge & he’ll get your machine running by hook or by crook.

    Kevin,

    I’ve been in touch with Andy Malcolm.
    Unfortunately he doesn’t work on BN-20s.
    He did suggest a contract service that Roland offer, where you pay for the repair and it reduces the cost of the contract.
    I’ve never heard of that, and I’m not sure how it works?

    Chris

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 16, 2019 at 7:31 pm

    Right,…

    Have had a chat with Colin Tupman ‘CETECH’ on the phone.
    What a knowledgable and very nice chap?

    It could need a new main board and a new print head.
    Or possibly just a print head. It has probably a blown white damper.

    Colin reckons to attempt a repair on my BN-20 would be a financial gamble.
    All too easy to go £1000+ over the limit of it being viable.

    It seems a brand new machine is the best option.
    Unfortunately I can’t afford one.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 17, 2019 at 1:02 pm
    quote Chris Jarvis:

    It seems a brand new machine is the best option.
    Unfortunately I can’t afford one.

    Or so I thought.
    Since this morning, things are looking up.
    ‘Looks highly likely that I am getting a new machine.
    There will be people to thank for making this possible. I’ll update with a roll call later.

    Now, what do I do with all these full or half full ink cartridges? As well as a redundant BN-20.
    Oh and a ‘new’ cap top, that probably isn’t of any use now?

  • Phil Davies

    Member
    December 17, 2019 at 4:36 pm

    Put the machine on eBay, spares or repairs. Someone will buy it off you. Just list the problems and what you suspect. Might get around £500-600 for it.

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 17, 2019 at 5:07 pm
    quote Phil P Davies:

    Put the machine on eBay, spares or repairs. Someone will buy it off you. Just list the problems and what you suspect. Might get around £500-600 for it.

    Thanks Phil,

    There’s no harm in trying, I suppose?

    Chris

  • Phil Davies

    Member
    December 17, 2019 at 5:25 pm

    Sold mine for £600, and I did tell them it would probably need a new head. Some people will take a gamble, others are probably printer engineers who can get it running cheaper to sell on at a small profit. Others may have a broken motor, but have a functioning head etc etc. If nothing else, someone is getting rid of your waste 😀

  • Chris Jarvis

    Member
    December 18, 2019 at 10:39 am
    quote Phil P Davies:

    Put the machine on eBay, spares or repairs. Someone will buy it off you. Just list the problems and what you suspect. Might get around £500-600 for it.

    Right,
    ‘Done that. For £295 with inks.

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