signs & high winds ?

[Gary Davis]

yep down here in south east seen 3 car dealerships with the illuminated monolith type signs (look oval from above) and all had popped out and taken the fluorescent tubes with it!!!! 🙄 (we didnt do them thank god!)

[signdevil]

This is the tricky bit. Who pays, the sign company or the insurance company. We may all have our own views on this, but who really pays legally ?

[John Childs]

Easy one!

If you put the sign up then you are liable. That’s one of the reasons why we don’t do signs.

Your only way out would be if the windspeed was in excess of anything that could reasonably be predicted in that particular location. The trouble is that this is difficult to prove objectively, and even with the best expert testimony it can still only be opinion, so you may well lose the case even if you are right.

With the cost and time I would guess that in nine out of ten cases it would be cheaper and much less hassle to just repair the sign.

The exception, of course, is if the client specifies the type of sign and how it is fixed, but even then if you don’t have documentary evidence you could stil be in trouble.

I can’t see where insurance comes into it. The sign still has to be fit for its purpose smd if a sign company puts up a sub-standard sign then the insurance company can walk away from a claim for exactly the same reasons as a client can.

[Pryam Carter]

We lost one too. Only just fitted the blo*dy thing. 🙁
A free standing sign, took the tips from the demo on this site about it.
Carried out the job and on Monday morning l noticed it was down, all bent and buckled.
the sign was a 3050 x 1500mm freestanding dibond sign with two posts. The wind pushed the sign backwards, it seems that the wind ripped the dibond from the runners which were fixed with VHB tape. The dibond sheet is in a right mess, beyond repair.
I’ll be starting again.
I’m interested to know where l stand legally with this one too.

[Peter Normington]

This is not clear cut, insurance companies only cover wind damage over a certain wind speed that is logged by the met office. but they will pay out in the case of exesive high winds. otherwise what would be the point of insurance. All sorts of things get blown down, including power lines that have been designed to withstand high wind speeds. The insurance loss adjuster may determine the structure was not adequate, but amongst all the claims that will be made this week a sign worth a relativly low value will not attract to much attention as to its suitability.

[Andy Gorman]

I don’t know how this relates, but a customer of mine has just claimed for a sign that fell down. The visiting insurance company inspector agreed that it was storm damaged and they paid up, even though I warned him a year ago that the timber battens behind it were rotten and that it would fall down. I suppose it depends on the level of cover, even though on this occasion they shouldn’t really have paid.

BTW this was under fairly normal weather conditions – no high winds.

[Breny]

One of my signs has been destroyed completely no the weekend.I’ve install it more than a month ago.And now the owner of the shop wants to sue me, because I don’t want to do it again for free.At the same time he claims from the insurance company double the money he gave me. (:)

[Andy Gorman]

There must be a time period after which the sign is solely the responsibility of the customer. We can’t be responsible for the maintenance of someone else’s building – the timber fascia and lead flashing to which a sign is attached needs to be kept painted and in good order, for example, otherwise the sign is going to fall off.

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote Peter Normington:

This is not clear cut, insurance companies only cover wind damage over a certain wind speed that is logged by the met office. but they will pay out in the case of exesive high winds. .

your right peter, i had to send a quote to a hairdressing salon whose sign blew away, last year when the country had the last spurts of windy weather… i got the job, and the owner of the salon had to pay £250 excess.

Nik

[-steve]

dont think this is an “easy one”.

we had a client who had a sign up for just short of 3 years, blew down in the glorious scottish weather, and he had the brass neck to come back to us and say it couldn’t have been put up properly, (having already survived 2 previous harsh winters)
Obviously when presented with the costs at the start of the project he opted for the cheapest solution (foamex), and at the time i explained the benefits of more durable materials, however, price, price, price.

to cut a long story short, i redone the sign for him at half the original price so as to keep the peace…..i was happy, he was happy (eventually!)

i think if the sign has been up for over a year with no probs then the signmaker shouldn’t be liable for it getting damaged or coming down in extreme weather (different if it was sunny, windfree afternoon in July).

We’ve got 80MPH winds up here tonight, and i’m sure there will be a few more signs coming down- (just hope it’s not any of ours 🙄 )

[Robert Lambie]

sorry, but i have to disagree, we are not immediately responsible.

we have lost 3 signs, big ones at that. well biggish, (& no, i never fitted them :wink:) anyway… 1 in Scotland & 2 in england in different locations.
are we responsible? Nop, and we will be paid again to make the same signs when the weather calms.

the 3 signs were all at least 4 years old. so have easily took the test of time.
we are having “storm conditions” around the UK. not just windy by any means. trees being blown over & the sides of factories being torn away.
of course this is all insurance claim stuff.

e.g.
you have a burst pipe, ruins all interior of house. do we blame the plumber & he has to cover the lot?
tiles from your Roof blow off exposing the felt… do we call the roofer and tell him to replace his shoddy work?
we could go on.. the bottom line is…
if we fit the signs properly in the first place & we get hit by a storm, we are not responsible.

courteous thing on a brand new sign would be to fix “minimal” damage.

the thing is, lets take a sign is blown down, 1 week or 1 year old.
if we know the sign is fitted properly & we know fine well we have had extreme weather conditions, then we should advise our customer to first make a insurance claim for storm damage on the sign.
insurance companies will send out a loss adjuster to inspect the damage & probably get someone else out to inspect how the sign was fitted.
if it appears to be fitted properly, the customer will get the claim and we get a second go at it, thats if the loss adjuster doesnt use his own preffered sign company. anyway, im sure we all know the process…

thats my opinion anyway… and like i said, 3 down in 2 days, and we are certainly not putting these up for free. just for the record, our customer never even hinted that it was our fault. just asked if his storm damaged signs could be made again.

billy,
how long was your sign up mate?
if it has been up a few weeks the cement should be set properly although the rain and the extreme cold may not have allowed it to dry properly below ground level. 😕 then comes the strong winds with major push….

i cant comment on your dibond, bonded with vhb to give you a true fault.
it can be various things to blame. (touch wood) but i dont have any signs like the ones i have demo’d come down, ever…
the storm damaged ones im repairing are 16×8 factory signs

[Peter Normington]

the point of insurance is to cover your losses in the case of predictable losses, If you own a building and the signs blow down you claim on your insurance, the insurance company through their loss adjuster will determine if you have a valid claim or not. If the sign was badly erected, taking into account all of the circumstances. they will still pay out but persue their losses if they think it is worth it. Ie they will sue the sign co for the costs. who in turn pass the claim to there insurance co. In practise this rareley happens exept when very large claims are involved.

[John Childs]

Sorry guys. I’m out of step again.

If you are going to erect signs then they must be able to withstand any weather they could reasonably be expected to encounter. The Met Office have things they call “ten year events”, that is to say that a wind in excess of a certain speed can be expected to occur once every ten years. Assuming that the average life of a sign is the same ten years then surely we are negligent if, in the absence of specific customer instructions, we don’t engineer them to last at least that long.

None of us would livery a van, with an expected lifespan of three years, in promotional vinyl, but rather we would go for at least a five year material. I’m struggling to see the difference.

[Peter Normington]

your right john but the storms in scotland were just that, a ten year event.

[Bill Dewison]

Either I’ve just stepped into the twilight zone or this is a truely bizarre discussion! 😮 You can’t be seriously saying that if a sign comes down due to adverse weather conditions, its the responsibility of the sign company to put it right?

Peter used an excellent example. Pylons are erected all over the place, and they’re built to last. So if one of those can come down due to adverse weather, a foamboard sign screwed and fixed to a shop front hasn’t got much of a chance 😕

If I have a TV aerial attached to my home, and 3 weeks later we had really high winds and it blew off, I wouldn’t blame the guy who fitted it. I’d be a little miffed as I might miss an episode of the Tweenies!

I could list about 20 examples, but they all amount to the same thing, if you fit a sign correctly, bad weather hits and it comes down, I fail to see where this becomes the signmakers problem 😕 Different if the sign comes down without adverse weather conditions, as this would suggest the sign had been incorrectly fitted. There are only so many fixings you can put in a sign to ensure it stays in position. Short of making every sign out of metal, sinking huge metal spikes into masonary then welding the sign to these, how are you s’posed to ensure the sign stays up?

This is quite a serious subject as concievably if weather conditions were bad enough to bring down signs left right and centre, sign companies could be bankrupted having to replace signs, especially if it spanned over a 10 year period!! 😮 As with the example of the plumber, if a plumber fits a boiler and 5 years down the line the pump fails, a burst follows and your house is flooded, I doubt the plumber will come back with a new boiler free of charge and waive the labour fee!

Cheers, Dewi

[signdevil]

Good points and feedback there guys. So back to my original post, the customer is threatening legal action if I don’t replace the sign at our cost. I have been fitting signs for 10 years and in that time have only lost two, this has been explained to the customer but of course they’re not at all interested in what we have to say because the customer is always right, not !!!!!! Lets see what happens hey 😕

[David White]

When we fit a sign we tell the customer to add it to his/her buildings insurance as soon as possible as we cover faulty workmanship and material not acts of god

[Dave Bruce]

A few signs down here one of them mine 😥 so I await a call from the customer.

A customer phones last week, their canopy had blown off, only been up a year, and the shop next doors canopy was still up so must be my fault.
I had a look and the stone work had crumbled on one side allowing the fixing to come out. The customer is not accepting that as they recently bought the building and their survey did not mention crumbling stone work. Sigh Guess I will be fixing it for free.

Dave
From a flooded out blown out Argyll, got trapped between the floods and fallen trees last night on my way home, filled the van with rescued people, haven’t had so much fun for ages.

[Shane Drew]

quote signdevil:

Good points and feedback there guys. So back to my original post, the customer is threatening legal action if I don’t replace the sign at our cost. I have been fitting signs for 10 years and in that time have only lost two, this has been explained to the customer but of course they’re not at all interested in what we have to say because the customer is always right, not !!!!!! Lets see what happens hey 😕

Sign Devil, I’d call his bluff. Let him sue.

You will only lose if it can be proven that you fitted it incorrectly. If your confident you did, you will not have a problem, I’m sure.

Takes a bit of nerve, but I am willing to wager your client is all wind!(excuse the pun). He is only going you because he is a) under insured b) thinks it will be easier, c) has an excess greater then the price of your sign.

Been there, done that. Hold your ground. That’s my advice.

End of the day, if the sign was installed correctly, the assessor will determine that, and the insurance will pay, minus the excess of course.

We saw the storms over there on our news here. Looked a bit hairy in parts.

Take care.

Cheers

[Bill Dewison]

quote signdevil:

Good points and feedback there guys. So back to my original post, the customer is threatening legal action if I don’t replace the sign at our cost. I have been fitting signs for 10 years and in that time have only lost two, this has been explained to the customer but of course they’re not at all interested in what we have to say because the customer is always right, not !!!!!! Lets see what happens hey 😕

This may be a daft idea, but it may save you getting taken to court and being at the mercy of an 80 year old judge who can’t remember where he left his teeth!

Could you not ask the customer to get confirmation (in writing) from their insurance company that they will not be claiming for this item through their insurance? Also could the insurance company confirm why they would not be willing to pay out for the damage sign, assuming it is covered on the policy? Just an idea, but it may put the chap of going through legal channels if he’s (assuming its a him) already put a claim in with his insurance and is attempting to pull a fast one.

quote DaveBruce:

filled the van with rescued people, haven’t had so much fun for ages.

I’m presuming the ppl aren’t still in your van? :lol1: Blimey, you’ll be known as the 5th Emergency Service now to your locals! 😀

Cheers, Dewi

[Aaron & Chris]

Does anybody have a disclaimer or term and conditions kind of document which you get the customer to sign before comencing work or do you just verbally tell them what could happen if…?

Chris

[Shane Drew]

quote arch-digital:

Does anybody have a disclaimer or term and conditions kind of document which you get the customer to sign before comencing work or do you just verbally tell them what could happen if…?

Chris

Chris, anything verbal would be no good if it came down to a ‘show down’.

I have the standard ‘all care but no responsibilty clause’ and the standard ‘ownership until paid in full’ clause, but if I think there will be a problem down the line with the state of the wall or substrate, I’ll discuss it with the client, then I’ll write it on the invoice by hand, and get the client to sign it as understood. I always discuss this before I start the job tho, so the client does not think you are making excuses after it has been done.

A lawyer could probably shoot holes in it, but no one has ever taken it any further, if a problem arises.

I always note on the invoice if the client painted the wall (and not me) for instance, so if there is a come back because the paint fails, I am covered. Amazing how many people will ‘forget’ they painted the surface before you signed it. From experience, if they are trying to save money, they’ll also buy crap to save on that too. If a vinyl sign is going to fail, odds on it will be the painted surface that fails first.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Peter Normington]

following on from what dewi said, all the people in Carlisle could sue the builder for not making their houses water tight and also ford gm etc for making cars that don’t float very well.
Peter

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote DaveBruce:

filled the van with rescued people, haven’t had so much fun for ages.

good for you dave!! 😛 your bit looked rather scary on the news this morning….. 😮 i lost electricity from around 10.50 last night until 4.30 today!! 😥 candles, domino’s and whiskey were on standby fab!! 😛

Nik

[Bill Dewison]

quote Peter Normington:

following on from what dewi said, all the people in Carlisle could sue the builder for not making their houses water tight and also ford gm etc for making cars that don’t float very well.
Peter

Yep and I wouldn’t like to be the company that erected all the road signs in that area… the pictures on the telly are pretty bad stuff, never seen anything quite like it in this country, other than a couple of freaky outbursts down south last year. Obviously doesn’t compare to the recent disasters in Asia, but its still must be a bit of an ordeal.

Sorry to stray there, its late, I’m tired…. oh, and I’m straying yet again! 😳

Cheers, Dewi

[Dave Bruce]

Back to fairly normal now except the telly,fridge and computer are blown with the ligtning, ahh the joys.

Cheers

Dave

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote DaveBruce:

computer are blown

not your new one dave? 😮

Nik

[Adrian Hewson]

Emergency call outs this week 7,3 for other peoples signs, one for our own sign that had been modified by someone else, 3 for our own signs. All seven customers asked how much it would cost to fix them. One is claiming from the brewers who put up their signs other six are payning them themselves. One is a nightclub with a £5K excess (sign is only worth £2.5K, next is a very good customer who has done approx £50K with us last year (asked if they could get a new design). High winds are an act of god, weak fascias are impossible to test, foamex wont last in any wind, acrylic will pop out of light boxes under pressure from wind. If you are worried about liability check your terms and conditions of sale and make sure you have a clause not accepting liability after customer acceptance, if any one wants a copy of super terms and conditions email me.

As Rob says plumbers are not responsible for burst pipes, electricians are not responsible for bulbs that expire, builders are not liable for subsidence (nhbc might be). Tyre sellers are not responsible for punctures and the fire safety officer is not responsible for fires.

Anything could happen to a sign after it has been erected, kids could have swung from it, someone else could have modified it or that part of the building, subsidence, traffic vibration. Anyone that guarantees a sign for life is nuts

[Dave Bruce]

Nik it was the home computer new one hasn’t got here yet 😕

many thanks

Dave

[elitesigns]

I agree with signco we’re not liable for acts of god bringing down signs, but the signs must be constructed of a suitable material and installed correctly. Same goes for an electrician if he wires in my cooker with 1mm cable, when the cable burns out, he’s liable.
If a sign is contsructed in accordance to bs559 then chances you won’t have any problems, in all but the worst of storm conditions.
Its ok having clauses not to accept liabilty if it blows down, but if your going to srew 8×4 3mm foamex signs to a building then i believe its the sign company’s fault. The sign company must advise the client what are the most suitable materials and construction methods. Quite often especially in smaller sign companies who afraid of losing the work, they will make and install a cheap inferior sign just because thats what the customer wants, we will not install anything that we believe to be sub standard.

[Adrian Hewson]

If a customer asks for 3mm foamex or the cheapest option as long as you explain its not going to last then there is nothing wrong with that. It is one thing advising customer what he should have and another thing supplying what he wants. Thats why you can buy anything from a Micra to a Rolls Royce.

If the customer asks for a stormproof sign that will last forever we would be happy to quote.

Regards Adrian

[Shane Drew]

quote signco:

If a customer asks for 3mm foamex or the cheapest option as long as you explain its not going to last then there is nothing wrong with that. It is one thing advising customer what he should have and another thing supplying what he wants.

So true. So many times the constraint is budget. People with champagne tastes and beer incomes everywhere.

They key is explaining that ‘you get what you pay for’.

If I were to insist on only doing work that was to my own high standard, I’d be looking at supplimenting my income.

Only today, I had a women request a sign, on a main road, 1200h x 4800 long. The building code for a permenant sign dictates it must be mounted in concrete, braced and have heavy duty fixings etc etc. I quoted $600 to $800 and she tells me she only has a budget of $200.

I told her I would put a temporary sign on the fence.

She said OK but wants a 7 year guarantee! :banghead: I asked her what part of TEMPORARY does she not understand! 👿

My 2 cents anyway.

Cheers

[elitesigns]

quote :

If a customer asks for 3mm foamex or the cheapest option as long as you explain its not going to last then there is nothing wrong with that. It is one thing advising customer what he should have and another thing supplying what he wants.

I disagree supplying what a customer wants is one thing supplying and installing something that is sub standard and a potential hazard is another thing all together

the signtrade has guidelines and codes of practices for construction of signs as do many trades, the reality is that if you install a sign knowing that the materials are not suitable and the sign fails causing personal injury, then who’s fault is it? , the customers for telling you it will do, or yours for accepting the customer knows best.

another point to remember is that your producing signs that are not as they should be, other people see these signs, ask who did them, this doesn’t do your reputation any good which is worth more than the customer who wants to spend £50 on crap sign.

[Dave Bruce]

Got to agree, I wouldn’t put up a 3mm foamboard sign for anyone, I would use my professional knowledge to convince them it wasn’t worth it for their image (never mind mine), haven’t lost a potential customer due to it yet.

My direct “competition” has put up three 3mm facia signs last year all over 3m long! The first one buckled so much it was embarrasing, then the wind got behind it and they had to replace it with 10mm foamboard. The second one, they had to go back six times to try and get it flat to the facia, still doesn’t look right and some of the screws have already popped(only been up 3months).Last one they fitted in December, same mess, bulging out. I spoke to the customer and he was disapointed that he had entrusted the work to a ‘professional’ and had been given the wrong spec.

I get more and more of their customers because people have more confidence in me and my knowledge, even when I am more expensive. People do like quality, you just have to convince them that you will deliver.

Cheers

Dave

[Nicola McIntosh]

quote DaveBruce:

I get more and more of their customers because people have more confidence in me and my knowledge, even when I am more expensive. People do like quality, you just have to convince them that you will deliver.

i have to agree with you there craig & dave!! 😛 even if someone pleeded with me to put up a 3mm foamex sign……i would not!! 😮 my name would be on it 😉

nik

[Shane Drew]

With all due respect guys and gals, and I am not really sure what you call foamex, but we have a 3mm product here called fourex which is an expanded foam pvc, and I suspect foamex is probably similar.

It is possible to do a good quality sign wiith a 3mm ePVC if it is installed correctly.

I installed a similar sign to the face of a concrete factory here ( a 1500×1500 directional sign), glueing the edge and centre using the lastest adhesives, and the result was very well received, as well as long lasting.

ePVC has a UV exterior life of 5 years, but if the installation is cheap, it will cheapen the whole job.

Dave, I’d respectfully suggest it was the sign shops inadequate installation that was the error with the 3 sign faces, not necessarily the material. Why they didn’t use vhb tape along each edge is confusing. It could still be machanically fixed, but the vhb would stop the buckling.

Obviously they were making savings on fitting and materials. I will offer a cheaper sign face, but I never skimp on installation.

Cheers

[Dave Bruce]

I would agree it was partly due to poor installation, but I can’t see how you can keep foamex flat for a perminant sign when it expands so much in the sun. Even 10mm foamex bulges. I have seen 3mm ones glued to facias and they are adequate on installation but after time they just pull away.

Cheers

Dave

[Shane Drew]

Thanks Dave. Must be different stuff. I have got fourex signs that have been up for 4 years with no drama at all. I’d suggest our hot days are a good test of its life expectancy.

Cheers
Shane

[Stephen Morriss]

I made the mistake a couple of years ago by using 5mm foamex to make a sign on a school, used supporting strips with vhb along the sign and also screwed it at every other strip.
It started to buckle in the sun so I had to go back and add extra fixings.

Trouble with this sign was that the customer had held onto the quote for near 6 months and then rang up in a panic on the Thursday wanting the sign ready for Tuesday morning so I didn’t have the time to make the normal framework and Alu sign that I would have used. It was also fitted during winter so it will have been at it’s smallest size.

The lesson that I learned is use Aluminium or 10mm foamex and use a framework that allows expansion while providing adiquate support.

Steve