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A Competitor is holding their clients to ransom. Right or wrong?
Hello people, so had a bit of a situation over the last few weeks and wanted to hear your thoughts as we can look at this from both ways.
I had the local taxi drivers in my town contact me regarding vehicle graphics to all their cabs. around 20! with a fair amount on them. So they are joining this “theme” which originates from a city 1 hour away, where they all run under the same name, graphics etc etc you get the pic.
So i quote, and hear that im the cheapest local company and they would like to use me. However, the sign firm in the city which did the original cabs are insisting that they are the only ones can do the job and they are not releasing artwork or giving permission to go elsewhere. Now i asked them if the artwork/design had been paid for originally and if so they can go where they bloody like. If artwork has not been paid then find out how much it is to purchase.
They have been going back and forth and the sign firm has come up with a rediculous number to give permission to go elsewhere. Basically holding them to ransom. So they need to pay for a firm an hour away to do all their stuff instead of me in the town.
The sign company is a large outfit turning over few million a year. Now are they ruthless? wrong or right?
All i know is i couldnt imagine treating a customer like this, aslong as they have paid their artwork, if i cant get the job on price etc etc then i dont get the job. But then im guessing thats the difference between the big and little fish.
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11 Replies
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I would say that if the artwork has been paid for, then the other company has to release it. Whether they will or not, is a different matter. If it hasn’t been paid for, then maybe recreate it from scratch, with some differences, so that it won’t be exactly the same, or offer a refresh on the design. Do sign companies have to give permission for a client to go elsewhere? I’ve never heard of that before. Do they have a contract saying that they are the only ones who can do this work?
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If the Taxi firm owns the artwork then they should already have it in their possession? I suspect they don’t own the artwork and the other company is under no obligation to release it to a rival. You would need to create your own artwork if you are going to take on this work. That seems reasonable and fair to me. The taxi firm are free to choose who they use but the question is who owns the copyright for the design currently in use. Is it the other sign company or the Taxi firm? If it’s the taxi firm then you are free to re-create it, but the other sign company is under no obligation to hand over working files to a rival. That’s my take on it
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Best pull up a chair!
Firstly, it’s a common myth that if they’ve paid for artwork they own the artwork. Its utter codswallop.
Let’s break it down –
Artwork = Time spent designing. They are paying for your time, skill and creativity.
What we’re now talking about is the intellectual property, and copyright of the artwork created. This is an automatic right, with no need to register it anywhere for the protections provided.
It’s exactly the same laws that apply to other creative types:
You appoint a photographer to take some images, you pay the photographer for their time, and probably a licence to use the images. This applied with my wedding photographer. They’re not my images, they are hers, she just lets me use them as detailed in the agreement. (In some instances they may hand over full rights)
Watch a DVD, or VHS, there’s a notice at the start – You have bought the VHS/DVD, but what you’ve actually got is a licence/permission to watch it in accordance with the licence – From memory you shouldn’t watch it on an oil rig?
Bought a photo from a stock library like iStock, you’ve not bought the image, but a licence to use it, and some have limits on the number of printed copies you can produce. Even Free sites have stipulations on what you can use it for, and attributing authors.
Many sign makers, printers, and small businesses see little or no value in their Intellectual Property, and will sit creating wonderful designs, for bugger all, only for the ‘customer’ to take it elsewhere.
No disrespect anyone, but with enough practice anyone can throw some stickers on a van, or bit of board.
What really sells is the design, the WOW factor. Obviously the Taxi firm are really happy with their branding and graphics and want to replicate it. Why because it works. It generates them business and money. Why would the originator of the artwork hand it over at no cost?
Suppose they don’t hand it over, and you decide to recreate it, you’re then crossing the boundary into copyright infringement.
They are under no obligation to hand it over. They can charge a licence fee. Or you could copy it and take the chance nothing happens.
Are they right – Legally yes. Morally – Questionable.
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My 2 pence…
1) I sometimes recreate artworks for clients who no longer can go to the previous sign writer for whatever reason. (company doesn’t exist anymore – designer is on holiday, etc, etc.)
2) I will never release artwork unless I’m paid what I ask – or there is an exceptionally good reason for me to release artwork.
3) In this case the big company doesn’t have to release artwork.
4) If all design elements belong to the cab company – just recreate the artwork. If the big company created unique artwork and is copyrighted – then it gets little complicated.
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Thanks for the replies guys. Replicating the artwork is not a problem, i told them i can do this if they cant come to an agreement. I dont know the finer details but i believe the sign company have put the shivers up them and they dont want too much trouble so are using them for the job. I understand what your all saying, this is how i see this scenario-
– Taxi firm went to signmaker and asked for a design/look for their cabs
– Sign company designed artwork and installed graphics to fleet of vehicles
– Taxi firm paid for artwork design and graphics
Now the way i see it is they are all paid up and shoud own a usable copy of their logo. Thats how i work anyway. But if your saying theres another revenue by selling the rights to use logo elsewhere then thats a direction ive never been in before.
Im not saying its wrong, im saying if i had that attitude and demands then id expect the customer to be extremely pissed and not come back again
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Yes it can be another revenue stream.
Look at it from the original sign co’s point of view. They’d lost the job, so they either hand it over and are guaranteed not to have it and make their competitions lives easy. Or do what they did, not hand over artwork and win the job back, or at the least get paid a substantial amount to release it.
Getty images do rather well from sending threatening letters to those who use ‘their’ images without a licence.
Look at the guy we took to court for using a photo I took on my phone, £1380 CCJ awarded. You’d be surprised what value IP has.
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Yes its opened my eyes a lot.
Its not about the artwork because i could draw it up in 30 mins. Its about them saying they have the rights to do all the work. Thats what im struggling to get my head round.
So in theory, any van we design and fit. Customer has paid for the entire job…. but next time round when they get their van done they go elsewhere and the design is the same…we can play this card.
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They’re not saying they have the rights to do all the work. They’re saying they have the rights to the design.
You design a livery for a customer, and they take it elsewhere, you can claim your rights to it – Of course it’s not really worthwhile. But it’s a no, no to handing over anything from me, especially vector logos/artwork. You might as well go and work for the competition.
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I know a company where vehicle graphics design is a completely separate service. Client pays for the design service and gets artwork emailed or on a CD / USB stick.
Client decided where he / she does the sign writing.
In your situation is tricky. On another note: in 25 years I haven’t heard sign writer to release artwork to another sign writer.
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Are they joining a theme, a franchise, or merely using the same style and branding cues?
If your local drivers are not joining the full branding, then they and you are free to riff on a motif. If it is all tied in to an app (uberoo etc), then the theme owner will have tied the brand up pretty tight, and licensing and franchise “rules” will kick in. I’m pretty sure that McDonald’s franchisee’s don’t get a say in who does the signage, or supplies the lettuce.
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Good point richard.
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